Podcast hosts Daniel and Adam interview Christian (CloudFest/MSP Global) about parallels between cloud hosting and today’s MSP M&A market, describing how private equity funding drove consolidation into a few large platforms while new niche specialists emerged and were later acquired. Christian argues MSPs should stay optimistic because customers still need trusted advisors amid security complexity and AI-driven change; MSP optimism in their “State of the MSP” report is around 4.3/5. For MSP owners, he suggests moving toward recurring subscription revenue and specialising by industry or capability to increase value to buyers. The conversation also explains why MSP Global exists: a vendor-diverse expo, strong education, and facilitated networking designed for introverts, with an international European focus (dozens of nations, including UK and US attendees). He advises attendees to use the event app, pre-plan sessions and meetings, be open about goals, and network proactively.
00:00 Pre Show Setup
00:33 Welcome And Agenda
01:09 Hosting Vs MSP Consolidation
04:53 Niche Startups After M&A
07:06 Why MSPs Stay Essential
10:59 Advice For MSP Owners
15:04 Why Another MSP Event
16:15 Event Pillars Expo Learn Network
19:45 Global Community And Partnerships
25:13 How To Maximise Attendance
28:40 Wrap Up And Final Tips
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Learn more and register for MSP Global at https://registration.mspglobal.com/registration?code=WELLING
Connect with Christian Jaeger on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/christianjaeger/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwelling/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris/
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here –https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
MSP Glossary: MSP Finance Glossary Explained | MSP Finance Team
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript:
Dan: Christian, welcome to the podcast.
Christian: Thank you very much for having me. I’m excited.
Dan: and so you should be, because we’ve actually got three, maybe two and a half topics that we’re gonna try and get through in the next 20, 25 minutes. the first topic though, really interesting to, to Adam and I in the work that, we do day-to-day around, mergers and acquisitions and preparing, for and m and a event, and really interested to hear your [00:01:00] opinions coming from the, the CSP, m and a environments, which, you say is 10 years ahead.
Christian: Yeah. So, CSP is in our terminology or my background a little bit, the cool term for hosting companies, web hosting companies back then. so my background is in that ecosystem. We, or I personally started in 2011, which is now 15 years ago. Even though I keep saying it’s 10 years ago, I realised that I’m too long in this industry now.
we run, still run a conference called cloudfest, and there we have thousands of service providers. And, when I started in 2011, you had yeah, significantly, or very high amount of small niche players. And there were only these consolidation game was only about to start. And, sometimes I’m, now that we dig in deeper into the MSP space, I feel reminded about, what we have been going through in that part of the industry.
[00:02:00] And I feel that we are now at the, at a similar stage at the MSP industry.
Dan: And dynamics of the markets similar in terms of is it private equity sort of affecting from the top down?
Christian: Yes and no. So ultimately it’s, if you look at, for instance, I’m, as you have noticed by my, nice little accent, I’m from Germany. in Germany, I would say there were first a few bigger consolidators, like for instance, United Internet Group who was, being in acquisitive. and then there were more and more hosting companies being acquired by, private equity funds.
And those became acquisitive as a strategy, and that changed the entire dynamics of the market. So suddenly somebody to put it in both terms, was injecting a lot of money into, back then high growth,or, and still high margin industry. and suddenly, people had to [00:03:00] hit growth targets based on the,PE requirements.
Eh, you have a lot of, individuals, behind the pe fund, and they of course want a big return. And in order to achieve that, you can, of course, grow organically, but then quite quickly will realise that, you could also accelerate your growth by inorganic growth, which ultimately means m and a.
And this, you could see that from 2011, there were more and more of these consolidators,coming up than the consolidators consolidated itself. And now I would say we are in a state, at least in Europe, where you have six, seven, like really huge platforms, plus still probably 10, smaller platforms, which still keep on investing into small niche players.
so what you see today is initially it was often in, in a region which wanted, which, which,wanted to be added. If you think, for instance, host Europe was a, a German based hosting company, acquiring, hosting businesses in the [00:04:00] uk, ultimately being acquired from GoDaddy. So the us that wanted to have a footprint in Europe, a strong one.
And I think this is something we would see in the SP space soon as well, and we can already start seeing it. So, if you look at the UK market, I think you are, you have more data on this, but you will see a lot of local,mergers and acquisitions, like really small MSPs joining forces. And then the next step, which we see now from Danish big MSP corporations or Germans like Net Go Data Group, which are now acquiring also outside of the core regions.
So I think we will see more dynamic in that regard.
Dan: really interesting. And yeah, I think sort of MSP platforms, region regionalizing or growing outside of their region, ad vania would be the, probably the main one that we’ve, we’ve experienced here in the uk. what one of the things that I’m observing in MSPM and A land is, [00:05:00] every, every time there’s an acquisition, there’s a whole load of seeds, spilt and new green shoot startup.
So customers, and actually, you know what, I was a senior engineer there, but I’m just gonna start my own MSP now. And in fact, we’ve started to see some of those businesses now be acquired intern as well. did the same happen in hosted land?
Christian: Yes. it’s a good, a good example, because the first example we just spoke about was regional expansion versus the second one, which maybe is the green span. or this, this new incumbents is a little bit more about technology or let’s say niche,capabilities of, in this case an MSP.
So I would argue the system developer or whoever you take, took as an example, they probably focus on one super niche, product, and they’re probably even better than the initial MSP. Yeah. And you saw that at, at the cloud service provider industry. So before, when we entered the website of a hosting company, they had managed hosting com, managed hosting solutions for [00:06:00] 500,000 euros or pounds a month to, super cheap web hosting for, 3 99.
So they had a nice flower bouquet of everything. service line. And the same thing is still true with many MSPs, the new incumbents, they rather focus on one specific thing and do it better than everybody else. So to your example at hosting, it was, for instance, becoming a specialist for agency hosting in WordPress.
Yeah. So being focused on this one target group and making the best product for this niche, and the same is what I currently observe with MSPs because, you know, it’s simply not possible to cater all your customers that all have different needs, but it’s often wiser to just cancel out customers or let them churn even and focus on that niche that you are really good at, that you get the biggest margin out of, and suddenly you are, a very different target, which maybe then becomes, [00:07:00] interesting for a bigger consolidator again.
Dan: Really? Yeah, really interesting. So lots and lots of parallels. the main message I take from this though is that, if you are ahead and there’s still activity and a, a buoyant positive marketplace, then that, means the MSP market should also, you know, anyone that’s worried about, oh no, this, this latest round of m and a, it will be the end of the market and there’ll never be an MSP, you know, in five years actually, you know, we’ve been worried about that for decades.
I think every new phase.
Christian: you know, when you put yourself in the shoes of the customers, there’s, even with the emergence of ai, there’s still so many problems that you need somebody trusted partner that solves the problems for you. maybe not for the next a hundred years, but for quite some time, especially, I don’t know if that’s very different in the uk, but if I look at the government sector or even big corporations enterprise it, that’s quite slow.
They are adaptive in, in coding [00:08:00] and development, but not so much in, in maintaining security of, let’s say workstations or, cash systems and all these kind of things. They’re very antiquated and I think they need trusted MSPs to help them. going one anecdote maybe, from the hosting landscape, again, when I started, there was a big campaign going out like the VPS, the virtual private server.
Yeah. The smallest dedicated version, or not undedicated version of a server you could have. And that’s that. The VPS is dead. Turns out that 2026 in, what are we, 12th of August. Yeah. This is still a product and it’s actually growing again. And the reason being is because all, all these AI tools, which even people like me, can now develop, they have to live somewhere.
So I think we should be much more positive, about the future. And it’s not only me saying that we do at MSP Global, we do the state of the MSP. It’s a big report asking quarterly, a couple of thousand [00:09:00] MSPs about optimism, for instance. Yeah. How do you see the future? And what I can say is I don’t have the exact number.
We are, zero to five and we are in the MSP space around 4.3, which is highly optimistic. And the reason being is like if you compare to lawyers for instance, you are at a scale of one or 1.5. So we should really look at our strength. and I still believe if, if you don’t fall asleep and keep adapting your product roster, at your ecosystem and you grow it, then you will be, we’ll be there for the next few
Yeah,let’s not lose our
Adam: completely agree with you, Christian, on, on that kind of optimistic approach and how, as an industry, we often think, oh, you know what? There’s this new challenge, new phase, new thing that’s come along. we’ve gotta adapt to it. Oh, you know, woe is me. The industry’s gonna die. We, you know, all that on-premise revenue, what are we gonna do now that’s all gone because of cloud, et [00:10:00] cetera.
the, the fact remains, that’s not our, that’s not our service. That’s not our product. Our product is simply simplifying technology to help small businesses get better. Now, what stays the same all the time is change so naturally, or that by definition, therefore, this, this particular sector is always gonna be in demand, at least in, in the shorter term.
Right? I can’t see how, with the complexity around security, the opportunities around productivity with AI and all of the way this is connected, that businesses today aren’t bamboozled with all of the options and the pace it’s changing at, and should they go take this route or the other route.
So they need that trusted advisor just to help guide them. and so I think, you know, this, that’s what the, the service is, it’s the trust on the relationship. It’s not what that, whatever that particular tech is today. and, for me,it’s really good to hear that sort of optimism figure of four points three, you were talking about the consolidation.
I’m [00:11:00] really interested to know then, given that kind of 10 year time drift of where the ho the, the hosting companies are now, what would you say to an MSP owner today in 2026, if they were like a hosting owner was in 2016? Would you be saying hold tight, stay in for a bit of a longer term? would you be saying, you know, change your strategy in this certain way, but be inquisitive yourself perhaps?
Christian: if you’re up for the risk profile, what would you be thinking about? Yeah. so the one, one thing I remember when we did a lot of, hosting m and a Ds was like, founders in particular asking us the question. Yeah. Well, I’m not sure whether this is the right time to say for instance, and my answer to this is it’s never the right time to say you will. it’s like when is the right time to buy a stock, right?
It doesn’t exist. So you need to look at yourself and make up go through a few, parameters, which are then defining whether it’s the right time for you [00:12:00] or not. Looking about, what options or when you become acquisitive. And also part of your question was what should I be changing? Yeah. I think look at the trends of the market.
One of his, managed services, subscription base is highly valuable. I think when I talk to many traditional MSPs, it’s a lot of one stop, or like one time, gains a little bit to what we do in event space. So I have to talk as we talk our vendors, and then I have one time sale, and then the next year I’m fighting for that again.
Versus when you have a subscription model, which is maybe even, lower in volume, has a higher value for a future buyer. So if you have the chance to go into the subscription model, do it. The second one is specialise. That’s what we could see very strongly on, on the hosting field. And I do see that as well in, in the MSP field.
So you don’t, or you see more and more MSPs, which are highly, [00:13:00] hyper-focused on one single thing. That could be an industry like, I’m going for dentists, or I’m going for, I dunno, machinery or whatever. Or it could be,like a, a different vertical. Like I’m the expert for, I don’t know, telephony or cybersecurity solution.
Of course. And then even within cybersecurity, there’s different branches you should focus on that the clear your profile is. The better or the more interesting you are for a buyer. The same is true for our conference. Yeah. We don’t run conferences for, horses and then a conference for guitars and then one for it.
We do only it and we look at the niche sector nobody else is looking at, which is in our case, MSPs and cloud service providers. And,that’s what we’re really good at. And we do our little secret sauce, which is, personalization of it oil. Yeah. So we ensure you don’t learn any, not only learn something, but you have a good time at it.
And that’s our special specialty and nobody else has that. And that makes me hopefully more [00:14:00] valuable,to, to a future buyer. And I think that’s uniquely applicable to almost any industry. What a statement. You will count me on that one. But I think it is true that you should have this, this secret source and this clear focus on what you do.
Adam: I’m gonna just make the point that I’ve learned a new word today. festival. I can’t even say it. Festival
Christian: Personalization.
right? I’m literally writing it down because that is definitely a new word for me. I’m gonna have to look it up afterwards. Probably, Yeah, German, teaching you English, it has never happened before.
Dan: the, the other bombshell from that statement is, that for my session at, MSP Global, I was gonna come on stage on a horse playing the guitar. So
Christian: Oh.
Dan: I may not do that now.
Christian: If, how do I say that? I don’t want to spoil too much, but there is gonna be horses at like, no, no joke. There’s gonna be horses at, MB Global 2026 and people on horses. So it’s gonna be crazy.
Dan: Okay. well there we are then. I’ve, I’ll definitely [00:15:00] pack the guitar and leave the horse at home.
Christian: Perfect.
Dan: so, you did a marvellous, segue there into, from the m and a topic into the, events, topic. And as we’ve arrived there, I think it would only be right to, to get into the next part of our discussion today, which is, well, I think, I think Adam in the groom room summed it up.
why do we need another MSP event?
Christian: Yeah, I mean, I hear that this question a lot. Yeah. And, there is of course a lot of things happening in any region, in any, any market,vertical. I think what. You have to think as a producer of these kind of, events, is we have to fight for the most credible thing somebody has, especially small business owners, which is not their budget, it’s their time.
So I, my only job is it to make your time most valuable. You have to get more value [00:16:00] out of your time that you invest into my show then instead of hanging at your office and solving customer tickets. Yeah. And this is the whole thing. And I feel that many other conferences do forget that. So for me or for our team, there’s two, three pillars which need to be tackled in order to be a successful event.
And there’s other events outside ours Yeah. that do that. but a few. Number one is where you need to have like an expo floor or some kind of vendor roster, like a variety of vendors. There’s a lot of shows out there, which are fantastic, but they’re always centred about one topic, one vendor who’s dominating everything.
And maybe you have one or two, holistic,sessions. And then ultimately it’s a huge pitch for a lot of money. So that’s one. You need this, this exhibition and you need a variety. and that’s very efficient if you want to meet several vendors selling [00:17:00] similar solutions. And you could just spend, let’s say two, three hours on the show floor and having met them, having a personal discussion with an actual human being, which is more and more rare these days.
So that’s the first pillar. The second one is education. So we need sessions that could be anything from a huge keynote where we have, for instance, at PHE Global, we have,researchers talking about holistic problems. We have hackers, one of the most famous hackers, in the world, telling, like how they, every time get hacked,like hack their customer.
They always find a loophole which nobody thought about. so that’s the second part. You need to learn. You get inspiration, but also you need to get product updates. And the last part, and this is for us also super important, is this networking people, especially CEOs, are highly introverted.
Yeah, of course. I’m on stage and I can be there, but I feel really, I don’t feel comfortable in being a room [00:18:00] with 100 strangers and I need to say, hello, I’m Christian, and I do an event. What do you do? And I hate that. I hate it. So what we do is we try to have the little introverted Christian to have a good time and make that easy.
And the way, how we believe that it’s easy is that we take. Little Christian out of his usual world and dump it in a theme park in our case. And, have, and this is why I was talking about horses and guitars. We have a, for instance, a mariachi band guiding people to the next party, or we have server throwing.
Adam: So, please join us and let’s see how far you can throw a server. and by the way, I’m also the co-president of such an,of the, WSDA, which is the Server Throwing Association. use are these servers?
Christian: are end of life.
Adam: One U to you? I’m trying to think. ’cause
Christian: it’s one
Adam: A one U. Okay.
Christian: one u yeah. It’s, yeah. Yeah. And it’s about eight, eight kilo. Yeah. It’s a little bit disco. Yeah. discus. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It’s an ancient Greek [00:19:00] sport. but it’s what it is. It sounds so stupid, but you have to make it easy. You have to, if I am in a weird, positive sense, weird environment, it makes me so much, it makes it so much easier.
I remember that we had a big cybersecurity vendor, and they, their CEO was coming to our party and the team taught me, ah, he is coming for a couple of minutes. And he doesn’t have, he has all these meetings. He doesn’t have time. And we did a big party in western part of the park. Yeah. Everybody was wearing cowboy hats and bandanas and little water guns and whatnot.
And then I saw the CEO after spending two hours with talking with customers, and he was wearing the cowboy hat and had a great time. I’m not saying that we all have to go crazy, but what it clearly showed me that this concept makes it easier to network. And, coming back to the question, why do we need another, in our case, even fun event is most of the events are centred around one region.
Yeah. You have great shows in Germany. You have great shows in London, of course. But for [00:20:00] me as a German MSP, it’s really hard to get to, to speak to your community, which is the UK MSP space. And then we have the Spanish MSP space. We have the Italian, the, the French are a little bit, is hard to crack, but even a few French.
So we have, I think 60 something,nations there. We had, 100 MSPs from Brazil, believe it or not. And this is the unique chance to form partnerships. Or if you don’t, then even listen to them because I’m 100% sure that the market, how you sell successfully is very different in the UK to, to Germany.
And you can probably learn a lesson from either of the two. And that’s something you will not find currently at any other show. And, this is the area where we want to invest in this is, we don’t want to be the biggest show, but we want to be the, the boutique where you can meet people from at least all over Europe, plus the crazy Brazilians,to exchange and have a safe space where you can talk business, amongst your
Adam: I’m clear, this is a [00:21:00] European event that, by design, doesn’t allow the French to attend. Is that correct? Just.
That’s of course a Bri, a Brit asking a German whether the French are allowed to attend. Right. we are uniquely accepting anyone. We have, I have to look it up, but we have, because you were talking earlier about the stats, or we were talking earlier about the stats of our podcasts and how we have of our podcasts, and we have mostly UK listeners, but we have a lot of North American listeners, and then we have quite a few listeners from every other country in the world, south America, Africa, Mauritius, in India, every, everywhere.
I had to look up some of the places I’ve never heard of them. I’m not sure if you’ve got any French listeners. I, I.
Christian: Yeah, we would see. we will find out after this. Please leave your comment in the show notes. yeah, but UK for instance, is the third, biggest, yeah, if I can say so, population of our community. And the fourth one is the US already. So we have quite a few hundreds, MSPs coming from the US [00:22:00] and, yeah,I think this intercultural,exchange of knowledge you will, it’s really hard
Adam: Well, and certainly if we’re talking about, again about this, you know, being a global industry, again, the consolidation. So, so exactly. You know, if you’re looking to move into Europe, expand that footprint, what is it the Italians or the Germans are doing differently that we could talk about?
I mean it’s, I know we’re a bit short on time, but is there anything in particular, you would say to the UK market around how Europe are doing things differently around the
model?
Christian: Yeah, I would say,the UK market is a little bit ahead of the game in terms of selling subscriptions and selling actual managed services versus this terminology when we started with MSP Global and the first event was in Germany. And certainly it is the case still in Spain, MSP managed services.
That’s still quite new for the rest of Europe, I would say. So that’s, that’s something, which [00:23:00] always strikes, my eyes, so to say. But, the way how, what is uniquely,working across the continent, so to say, is the extreme close connection of the customer and the MSP, I think, I don’t know if it was you, Daniel or Adam who said, you are like this trusted partner, that advisor, which is still needed in the future.
And I can see that pretty much everywhere,across Europe. Now, I do remember one, session, I think it was two years ago, we had a Spanish MSP in the session I was, moderating, about the state of the MSP, where we talked about how important, partnerships are in our industry. And there was, so as the guys where you’re from, blah, blah, who needs a partner in, in who’s from Spain.
And there was a guy raising his hand. He was standing up and I said, okay, do you need a partner? Where do you need a partner? Yeah, I have this one customer he wants to enter in Malta, and it’s really difficult for me to find. And so I asked like, is there an MSP for Malta? And there was literally one guy standing up and these guys, I met them last year, they actually found the [00:24:00] partnership, they’re doing business together, se serving that one customer.
So this is that one lead I gave to them, but it’s just a beautiful example how that works, how the actual model is different. We need to ask the two,to learn how it is different to, the Maltese programme is different to the, the Spanish industry, but we will only find out if you speak to other people.
Dan: And, of course I asked the original question very much tongue in cheek because Adam and I are both big advocates of,events and in particular MSP networking. So that, that third pillar that you described as being an essential part, you know, we’d a hundred percent back that. And, and yeah, and we definitely see an internationalisation of the MSP market happening.
So we see, UK MSP serving the us, we see US MSP serving UK and Europe. And, and that is because all of our clients are now able to work internationally with so much less friction and [00:25:00] increased ease that they’re gonna, they’re gonna be, global in their approach, and therefore so must the MSP and therefore even more that trusted relationship,is, is needed, but cross border.
Yep.
so yeah,in the last few minutes that we’ve got available to us, and I think you’ve already laid some of the tracks for this question, but anyone that is attending and hope, hopefully there’ll be, there’ll be a few following this, this podcast. your advice for them getting the best outta the event.
Christian: so there’s a couple of things you need to do. First of all, and it sounds stupid, but download, download the event app. we put a lot of effort in it. You can actually enter,your pe what you’re looking for, and it’s directly,reading it and suggesting connections you should be making on site.
So that is helping the introvert Christian again, to redefine the right people. Then maybe even if it’s on the plane, yeah, you can download the, the agenda and cross a handful of [00:26:00] sessions you would like to attend. Don’t attend too many because again, your time is precious. You only have one and a half, two days,of, selection.
Nothing is worse than wasting your time while being on a, in event and looking up, oh, this sounds interesting, but where is it and where’s the other one? So please, on your time, when you are from the UK flying directly to Rios or, Barcelona, it’s a two hour flight, I would guess spend that to work out the agenda and where it is, the actual organisation of this social events stuff that’s already been cared of, you don’t have to worry about it.
That’s, that’s the, the second one and the third one is what are the topics that matter to you? Could be cybersecurity, could be, SOC, whatever it is. Write it down. Yeah. or type it in your phone and make sure you already pre-select the people you would like to talk to and also the vendors you would like to talk to and make sure that you really tick up the boxes.
Yeah. Maybe that’s a little German and me talking now. Yeah, you need a list and you go there and be [00:27:00] prepared. Yeah. Very German. but it really helps. And the last thing is, if you drink a beer that often helps but be talkative. Talk to strangers if you don’t feel comfortable that the only thing that helps me all the time is that in 90% of the time, the other one, the other person I’m approaching also feels uncomfortable.
And as soon as we start breaking this cycle of two strangers meet in Spain and the sun is shining and we both holding a beer, that’s actually, once we start, chatting, that’s quite a magic that can happen. And it’s a relief in a way. So jump, in, in Germany would say jump over the shadow, your own shadow.
I don’t know if that translates well, but be brave and try to have conversations because 99 of the 99% of the people are friendly. They are there. and be open. If you want to say, be open. If you are, if you’re looking to acquire, yeah. Don’t, and nobody hates somebody who’s like circling around a problem, be open about it, it’s fine.
This is a business conference. People [00:28:00] go there to save people, go there to learn, people go there, to acquire a office. This is fine. and be open about it. And then you can really make something out of your time.
Dan: really great advice. And, and th this will be my second time attending, the first time at the, no Berg Ring event. and one of the things I came away from undoubtedly was, you know, I felt totally at ease with a load of people that I’d never met before. And,and yeah, very friendly.
Nice. Just a nice vibe. Just a really nice vibe actually. And,so, yeah, I commend you on,I mean, first of all, putting on an event of thi of this scale, and for a number of years running and,but actually creating, yeah, a really nice community, field to it. So, we, we’re pretty much at time, if anyone has been listening to this and wants to carry on the conversation,how best to follow up,where do we go?
Christian: yeah, of course follow up in person has nothing better than an in person, meetup, so I think then it has a code so you can attend if you’re at MSP, drinks are on me. but you can also, I’m happy to connect on LinkedIn. [00:29:00] I’m really easy to get, because I’m a strong firm believer of personal connections and one, one person helping the other digitally or in person.
So always reach out, and be friendly and be open about what you actually want, and then I’m sure we can help.
Dan: good. Adam, any final
Adam: Oh no, you keep asking me this question. You just put me on the spot. I asked all my questions today.
Christian: one advice. I forgot. Yeah, we are in October, sunny Spain bring sunglasses and some sunscreen, because it was really hot still last year and I’m hoping for the same. yeah. So please come visit us
Adam: you had the summer? The crazy summer we’ve had so far?
Yeah. Yeah. So we’re already sort of warmed up with this,
Christian: That’s true.
Adam: We’ve probably had Barcelona weather for three months, so we’re probably ready for it. no. Look,I think it’s, I think some really good stuff in there in particular, that kind of realisation that [00:30:00] you are not the only one thinking like you are thinking.
so actually, yeah, just have a beer, go up and talk to someone and it’s amazing what you come away with, with these bar type conversations. just don’t be too, almost too sort of, contrived around what you think you’re gonna get. Just start a conversation, see where it goes,and often you, there’s all sorts of things you can come away with.
Christian: Yeah, exactly. Couldn’t, that’s a nice last word. So nothing more to add.
Dan: And we’ll end on that. Thank you very much.