Marino joins the podcast to discuss decision-making psychology for MSPs, emphasising that B2B buying differs from B2C because decisions require justification to others and are shaped by different goals. He describes common friction caused by misalignment between what MSPs pitch as “gains” and what business owners perceive as “losses,” highlighting loss aversion, status quo bias, and sunk cost effects (including attachment to existing tools and the implied threat of admitting past mistakes). Using a probability-and-reward example, he explains biases in cognitive decision-making and how statistics can be misread without context. The conversation covers how asking too many questions increases cognitive load, why multi-quote requests often signal weak differentiation of the MSP (not just price), and why prescriptive sales scripts can feel inauthentic; trust, fit, and practice through more conversations are stressed. Marino recommends Kahneman’s “Thinking, Fast and Slow” and Phil Agnew’s “Nudge”
00:00 Welcome and Topic Setup
01:13 B2B vs B2C Decisions
02:26 Client Utility and Friction
06:11 Cognitive Biases Explained
10:39 Loss Aversion and Framing
14:26 Status Quo and Sunk Costs
17:47 Winning Quotes and Differentiation
20:31 Qualification and Buyer Psychology
23:38 Cognitive Load in Sales
25:44 Authenticity and Bounded Rationality
29:21 Resources and Closing
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Marino Vigliotti on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinovigliotti/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwelling/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris/
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here –https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
MSP Glossary: MSP Finance Glossary Explained | MSP Finance Team
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript:
Dan: Marino, welcome to the podcast
Marino: Hi, Daniel. Hi, Adam. Thank you very much for, inviting me. My pleasure
Dan: you’re very we- very welcome. And, I think we’ve got a really interesting topic for today. And, I have to admit, I’ve learned a little bit about you i- in the green room before we started, just how academic, you were or are. So, today we’re gonna talk about the psychology of decision-making for MSPs.
where do we start?
Marino: Okay. So yes, it’s, it’s very academic as a topic, but it’s actually what us as individual we do every day. So people shouldn’t be scared about these words, you know, sounds very academic. It’s, and it’s often, what you actually see in marketing, in sales, but is aimed at, consumer. And, as we are in a B2B business, it’s slightly different.
And, so it’s, I wouldn’t say misapplied, [00:01:00] but it’s actually not properly not naturally researched and that people think, when you do B2B, is similar to B2C. And psychology-wise, it’s very different
Dan: Right. Well, m-may-maybe that’s the place to start then, the differences between B2B and B2C, ’cause they’re people, right? Whether they’re a business or a consumer.
Marino: Yes. And, so let me give you a classical example. us as a consumer, there is nothing that is stopping us from making a decision other than ourselves. so we don’t have to justify to anyone. So e-even if it’s a slightly bigger purchase, you probably… You know, you are into cars. If you wanna buy a new car, you might need to consult with a slightly bigger, audience in your family.
But their audience, you know, they might not stop you, they tell you something. In business, you actually have something else. Even if you’re a business owner, you still need to consult with your technical people, and, they push back. So, [00:02:00] so there is a very different way that the people behave, in B2B decisions, even if it’s a small MSP of 10 people.
and, so all the research that is done at the psychology level, often is aimed at the B2C because it’s easy to measure. but in the B2B, the relationship is wider, especially on the selling side. and,I can expand a little bit more. so why, so when, you know, as an MSP goes into a client, they often think, what is, what the MSP thinking what is good for the client, which is a fair point.
You start from there. But, the people there are behaving in a different way. On the other side, the utility that somebody wants to get from, a product, it’s very different from what the MSP is trying to pitch. What I mean is this: so, for example, you, the end user, it’s, a small [00:03:00] firm, maybe accountancy firm, and for them, the utility they get from, the MSP services are, how I better use my time, how I, you know, can reduce some cost, which is a classic whatever.
So the MSP, what actually thinks, he say, “Oh, I’m going to sell more, and, you are going to gain more time.” So this misalignment cause, a friction, and the friction, for example, happen on the, gap that the MSP doesn’t actually know what the aim of the business. As I mentioned, an accounting firm, their business is selling accounting services.
Everything else, it’s, complementary The IT, yes, it’s important, data is important, but the point, you know, you- unless you’re actually making use of [00:04:00] it, the business owner or the accounting firm, guess what? Say, “Oh, I need IT like I need a car. I need a building.” So utility, again, is more psychological than, money, and that is the first friction that often you have, and is not even seen.
And I, I say the word friction because the MSPs, they’re thinking about objections There are no objections. It’s the aim of, and the goals of the owner of the business on the other side is completely different from the MSP
Dan: really interesting. And I’m pretty sure I’ve heard before that all decisions are emotional, and then you work back from that in terms of just- justifying that. have I got that the right way around?
Adam: D-D-Dan, just before we dig into that, can I just check with Marino? I understand what you’ve just [00:05:00] said because, I, and I’m sort of paraphrasing this, but I guess what I’ve heard is that from the client’s perspective, you know, they’re in the business in this specific instance of being an accountant, working with their clients, helping their clients, and making some money.
They’re not in the business of having an IT network. The IT network is something they have to do their job, but it’s a cost. They don’t actually particularly generate new business from it or generate really profit from it. So it’s, I’ve forgotten the word I’m, I need to use now, but it’s a painful purchase.
Marino: What’s the word I’m after? it is a correct one. Yeah, it’s a
Adam: yeah. But anyway, the point is, it’s…
Dan: center.
Adam: Yeah. so, so, you know, this is about reducing pain and reducing risk. neither of those things, you know, the owner of the accountancy is really interested in doing that much. I mean, he knows he’s got to do it, but it’s not exactly exciting for him.
so, so you’ve got an IT owner who’s walking into this [00:06:00] meeting all excited because all this tech is great, right? And I can solve all your technical problems, but actually the accountancy owner isn’t really that interested, quite frankly. Is that the sort of things you’re talking about here?
Marino: Correct. And, also I can link to what Dan was saying. Often, and that, is because, people don’t know the word emotion. Emotion is a psychological state the person is in. But when you make a decision, you actually make a decision using cognitive, functionality. So they’re very big words.
You know, they have … you don’t have to be scared. So the emotion doesn’t help you to calculate something. if something is bigger than another one, it’s not the emotion that drives you that. And that is been proven, you know, at, … So I’ll give you … Let me give you an example. practically, you have two choices.
the first choice, you have a 70% chance of having 100 pounds, so 70% chance of 100 pounds. [00:07:00] And the second choice that, the first one is A, and B is a 30% of 300 pounds. So choice A, 70% 100 pounds. Choice B, 30% of 300 pounds. Is a gamble, is a bet. Which one you choose? Dan, B. Andrew, B. And Daniel, which one you choose?
Dan: Yeah, I’m trying to, I’m trying to work it out because I’m sure there’s a deliberate number here. I’m just gonna copy Adam and say B.
Marino: Okay. Okay. that’s exactly, you know, it’s very interesting. Two people, Andrew went straightforward. So he actually did a very quick calculation, 30% of 300 is 90. And you were trying to think which one is. And as you can see, there is no emotion in it. There is a pure cognitive [00:08:00] calculation. So in this test, it’s not mine, you know, it’s been around for several decades, people choose A because they think about 70.
70 is more probable, but 70 of 100 pounds, it’s 70. So technically speaking, if you are a real rational person, you are going to choose B. But because you are there and your cognitive processes are not always, you know, there, you go for the first one. You saw the big number 70, and that’s why you chose. That is the psychology behind. So it’s not being irrational that you are actually be driven by what are called biases. And your bias is to go towards something that seems much more probable, but actually is going to return you less
Adam: this reminds me of, stats that you often see in, in, in the, in media and newspapers, and it’s a common problem because journalists, by definition, [00:09:00] are wordy people, generally speaking, right? They’re good at stringing together words and sentences and stories. That’s why they become journalists.
They’re not necessarily good at statistics. and so often you see this problem a lot. but even when the statistics is accurate, and they talk about 100% increase in breast cancer or 100% increase in, in some other form of cancer, and then you… But what they don’t tell you, of course, is that the percentage, you know, of the chance of getting that cancer in the first place is 0.03% or something.
So, so actually 100% increase is actually a minute increase in terms of risk compared to all the other risks that you meet on your daily life. and so 100% increase all of a sudden, well, that’s huge. That’s awful. Well, no, it is- it isn’t actually, if we compare it to the fact that you’re gonna cross the road 10 times today and you drive a car and you probably have some alcohol and maybe you smoke and goodness knows what, right?
So, so, you know, none of this sort of wider context is ever kind of considered and, yeah, I think that this sort of bias around being able to understand data and [00:10:00] emotion is something that we- i- isn’t really taught, is it? and it is in- I find it really interesting as well, I guess
Marino: Thank you. And you actually brought up… Sorry, you actually brought up this. Andrew, you actually mentioned all your daily cases, so you as an individual. And that is the thing I was telling you before. There is a difference between B2C and B2B. so the MSP, for example, always find it difficult to present some business cases because it’s much easier to relate to what we do every day.
But it’s not how we take decision in business, especially B2B So Andrew
Dan: and, I’m just wondering though, reflecting back to my decision about the £100 or the £300, I, I really didn’t want to– I didn’t wanna miss out on 200, on £200. So there was some fear there, of missing out. So is that part of my [00:11:00] decision?
Marino: yes, because what we discussed before was about gaining, gain something. So there is another difference and that, so when people perceive something as a gain, they behave in a specific way. And now introduce the other concept, which is called loss aversion. So when the same figure in absolute value is perceived as a loss, actually is considered psychologically as a double loss, as utility.
So if I would have said, you know, which one you will go for, you know, say losing, for example, the same percentage, you would have been extremely negative and conservative and not gone for that. So to refer it back to what we were talking about, an MSP that goes into, so linking what you were saying, Andrew, about, a business owner, they will see as [00:12:00] a cost.
A cost is actually going to make more loss, making more loss. So the person at that point, when they’re starting to see, “Oh, I need to buy something else, I’m not going to benefit,” so they switched from the MSP saying, “This is what you’re gaining,” and the framing on the other side is, “Actually, this is what I’m losing.”
So their loss, it counts double, and the objection, friction, everything is starting to get wider and wider. The MSP’s thinking, “I’m selling you benefits.” The other person on the other side, psychologically, “I’m actually losing more, than what you’re trying to sell me.” And, this is where, you know, often, you know, people need to be careful they are not perceiving that as a loss on the other side.
Adam: are you saying, Marino, that the, client in this instance is hearing that the MSP is trying to sell [00:13:00] them a benefit or a win or a gain, but actually they’re not hearing that or they’re not feeling that? What they’re feeling is they’re just, it’s gonna cost them money and they’re not gonna get anything for it.
Whereas the MSP actually should be saying, “This isn’t about a gain, this is about removing a loss or reducing risk.” is that what you’re saying? I’m just wanting to sort of
Marino: Yeah, no, that’s correct. Yes. So, the business owner will see on one side they are actually what they need to fork out is a loss. they don’t see that as a gain. And that, will increase the psychological pain, that is double of what they actually would be as a– would be seen as a gain
Dan: And this I guess in particular if we like, we go back to the first time we were selling IT where it was a productivity gain, which naturally meant, and by the way, we’re now repeating this again with the AI revolution, of course. [00:14:00] But, we’re gonna spend more money, but we’re gonna free up more capacity and therefore avoid a cost in the f- in the future. But we’ve got a– There’s no direct correlation.
You’ve gotta speculate to accumulate, so there’s still risk around whether the decision will pay off. and, i- is there some complexity around, around that? again, is that another gap that needs to be bridged?
Marino: Yes, that is very interesting because what you’re saying, again, is a typical decision where you as an individual, you tend to make decisions that are actually benefiting you straight away, so you tend to think in that way. When you are a business, what you’re saying, you’re spending something now that you’re hoping to recoup in the future, and that introduce a complexity.
What’s the value in the future of what I’m going to save? And human beings are not good at calculating that because there is uncertainty around, and [00:15:00] this uncertainty, it’s, not easy to measure. So of course, you know, there is some gain. You know, as a l- you’re trying to be rational on the selling side.
The person on the other side, they say, “I actually cannot calculate these benefits,” and this benefit is a psychological benefit, so they tend to go in what is called the status quo. The status quo is where they are now, and they are pretty much… Let me give you an example. If you have a software package that they purchased.
So you’re saying now this software package, you know, can be replaced, so you’re gaining more and more. So the status quo is what I have now, and, the typical problem is a sunk cost. Sunk cost is actually something that actually weighs so much more on the decision And, it’s not just economical. Again, somebody said, “I had this software for so long.
I like the colour. I like the green and the blue. You’re [00:16:00] trying to sell me something that is, more, you know, on the grey side.” And i- and that has a huge, impact on the decision. And people undervalue this, you know, this, psychological aspect on the other side, is what you were saying before, Daniel.
Emotions, actually, they are not really linked to emotion. They are, linked to cognitive decision. Somebody that has used, a piece of software for five years, if you say you need to replace it with another one, you say, “For five years you’ve been talking rubbish. You’ve been using the wrong thing. You make five years of wrong decision.”
So you’re actually telling them, “You’re pretty much stupid.” s- and that is something that people need to be careful about more than actually valuing the saving. Because you will say, “Look, that probably was, correct at the time you did it. You did … You took as much as you could out of that software. You cannot get any more, so you need to move on to the next stage. So was perfect what you did.” [00:17:00] Sounds silly, but you’re actually helping them to soften the attachment they had to this sunk cost and the status quo they have. And, you know, it’s not really softy, but it’s, it is helping them
Dan: l- like it and, and pro- probably, pr- probably moves the conversation onto we’ve established what the challenges are. It’s, what can we do about this if, if I’m going into a client meeting, how do I avoid these issues? And, I think the first point there is, you gotta sugarcoat things, and be aware that a- actually, y- yeah, there’s a pill to take here.
But, but there’s nothing wrong with, nothing wrong with, he- help- helping the buyer make that decision and not be taking all the blame when it wasn’t their fault anyway. But they might think it was.
Marino: So, so for example, even, you go … You maybe be invited on a possible tender or something, and, for example, it’s very often that people ask for three quotes. So the [00:18:00] first person, did the hard work, convinced them to switch them, to something else. So, and, they’re asking other two, and the reason is because they’ve been sold and they purchased mentally, they need to switch.
Now, but they haven’t chosen the s- the provider, so actually the first person made the, a very good job not just to sell the concept of a new packaging software, but they didn’t actually sell their own company. They didn’t sell why they need it from them and only from them. So actually they opened the door to someone else and say, “Go and have a look.
If you find it cheaper,” in the end it’s still the same packages. So, so if you are in a situation where you convince somebody to switch and they say, “I just want to check someone else,” and they come back … Oh, they say, “Somebody else is offering lower,” it’s a sign that you did all the hard work [00:19:00] for the software, for the service, but not for your company.
That’s the problem that you need to address. It’s not the price because they, for … If they’re asking a second and third quote, they are sure they need to do something, but they’re not sure they wanna do it with you. And that, so you need to be very careful it’s not a pricing problem, it’s they haven’t valued for who you are as a company.
If you are on the other side that you are asked, “Oh, can you give me a quote?” so it means that they are not trusting who is giving the quote, so you need to literally rebalance and say, “It’s not just about the product, it’s about us.” So, so if you are an MSP invited for a second quote, a third quote, it’s nothing to do with the product and because in the end even if you do it lower, you’re becoming
Yeah, so it’s more of a say, why with us?” which is slightly different. So that is one
Dan: I, I’ve definitely heard [00:20:00] different opinions on this. some people wanna be the first through the door, some people wanna be the third one through the door. but actually it’s not the order you go in, it’s how you do it and, ma- making sure that you’re, you’re positioning yourself as the best partner as well as the actual problem itself that you’re solving
Marino: there is never a perfect– You’re correct. There is never perfect, but if somebody’s asking, it means they are not convinced they, they need to do it with you. The– and it’s all a statistical probability. y-
Dan: So is the solution then to make sure that you’re asking the question, rather than just providing the quote? So let’s say someone’s already had a quote somewhere else. this comes down to qualification. So
Marino: y-yes. I think, it’s a hard one because you don’t know where … If, say, for example, they already been provided with a quote, how much more you can ask, before they get upset with you. So, [00:21:00] I’m afraid that I can’t, I can’t give you the perfect solution because I don’t think exist. and, it’s a part of your, experience, as you go.
You know, you don’t win all the quotes that you put out, but I think what you can learn, it’s, the one … And often you think, “Where I made mistake?” Often you haven’t made any mistake. That is what people try … Always say, “I need to learn.” Often there is nothing to learn. They just wanted a number
Adam: the, yeah, and I think the complexity with the sales process and the sales meetings, at least speaking from experience, and having read around it a little bit, i- is that, of course, you’re not dealing with logical pe- logical entities. You’re dealing with humans, right? Ultimately. And however good your own logic is behind your own product, the structure of how you put it together, the, the refer– the testimonial, testimonials you have behind it, you know, the evidence for your great [00:22:00] service.
you’re not dealing with necessarily a logical, entity on the other side of the desk. And they’re gonna have their own biases. They’re gonna have, blocks in, in knowledge. they don’t know what they don’t know, so they don’t know what questions to ask necessarily. And you in the– as the seller in this situation, you know, you’ve got to be like listening and talking at the same time, trying to think ahead, trying to think about, well, hang on a minute, what bits does this person not know that I’ve now got to ask her to understand, you know, where to fill the gap or, and/or make sense or…
You know, and it’s incredibly difficult. and I think, the reality of it is that, yeah, it, it’s, to some extent, all you can do is what’s with- within your control, which is ask, you know, enough of these open questions, the right sort of questions to understand, you know, ultimately what the business is about, what their priorities are, their motivations are, and what problems they’re trying to look to solve.
And then in, in good, in good faith, talk about your product, your service, who you are, what you stand for. And do you know what? If that’s not good enough for you, then [00:23:00] maybe, you know, that’s not a fit for you. And that’s where, for me at least, in terms of the sales process, this is about the numbers component of marketing and making sure you’re just getting good pipeline coming through.
and, and in particular are, designing your service, around that target market as much as you poss– So again, it– knowledge of your target market is key in all of this, because the more you understand their fears, their needs, their biases, their, the, you know, the challenges, what keeps them awake at night, the more you can talk about that, the more you’re likely to kind of gel in that conversation
Marino: Yeah. you mentioned few things. The, so the first thing is actually people don’t have choices, that get revealed. This is the classical approach. So it means, they already chosen and they reveal it to you. In the psychology of decision-making is about the construct of the preference. The construct of the preference means that the moment that the [00:24:00] person is going through the process, they’re actually constructing their own preferences because prior they probably don’t have preferences.
So in that process, as you said, as a salesperson, you’re helping them to construct what they want to go through. and, another thing is, which I particularly dislike, often people say you need to ask a lot of question. Actually, it’s wrong because let me give you an idea. The more you ask questions, you are actually putting the person un- under a cognitive load, a cognitive effort that is huge.
So often you need to ask, it sounds silly, the right question. The more question you start to ask, the person gets tired. The– because they’re answering to you. Even if they know the answer, it’s absolutely wrong to ask something they already know. It’s something easier to say, “Your company is producing, ten million revenue.
You have, twenty-five people.” for them it’s much easier to say yes, no, than actually go and think it because they [00:25:00] don’t have to search. They don’t… they need to infer. And that helps in the construct of the preference because you’re asking things broad. You’re actually saying is this, and this.
Help them quickly to get to the point where you need to get
Dan: So, one of the phrases that comes to my mind is a descriptor of sales is you’re helping people to buy. And what you’ve just described there is, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be, cognizant of, of what the buyer needs to make it as low friction as possible and as efficient as possible for you as the seller as well.
Marino: It’s correct. Often
Adam: and just
Marino: So go Andrew
Adam: So sorry, I was ju– I was just gonna say, the, maybe this is a bit of a tangent actually, but the, there, there’s so much out there around sales process, and particular sales, techniques, and there’s whole programs around them and, you know, they’ve been sel-sold for [00:26:00] decades.
and I’ve been on a few myself, and you know what? And I’ve just come full circle back round to authenticity and, and expectation of, a fit between you as the seller and a buyer. and you know, you can go, you can tie yourself in circles about following this structure and asking this type of question and not open- asking that type of question and all the rest of it.
and I get it, but the moment a seller feels there’s something inau- a buyer rather feels there’s something inauthentic, there’s some kind of choreography, there’s some sort of pattern or structure that’s been followed here to get you to think in a slightly different way. and I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced this, but, I’ve experienced it several times when I’ve been in that situation and straight away the s- the shutters go up, that, that person loses trust.
there, there’s anything else they say now you don’t hear. and quite frankly, you know, they’ve lost the sale. So that kind of trust piece component, however you need to establish that, needs to be established, [00:27:00] I think is the key thing. And, you know, that’s a social, some kind of social, experience between the two of you.
and I guess, all I’m saying I suppose is, I mean, speaking at a personal level, is being wary of overthinking some of these dynamics and, programs that have been geared up to like, you know, suggest there’s just this way of doing it. And I think I just, you know, I’m averse to that type of thinking.
Marino: thank you for bringing this up. You actually described what is, in the psychology is called. You know, so you have the normative way, which is logical, where you sit at the table and you write down everything and looks logical, but in reality is not. And what you described in the sales processes, they’re called prescriptive because they come from observing people, how they work in the field.
the issue’s there, as you said, we are human being. We don’t remember all the steps in the right order. So as you’re sitting there in front of your c- client and you’re [00:28:00] trying to remember the order, you are actually going through a cognitive phase that is huge and you’re pretty much screwed. So that becomes less natural and it becomes like you’re trying to
The person on the other side say, “This guy’s trying to do something to me that I don’t want to.” Actually, what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to remember these steps in this order, and no one said they should go back. So it becomes unnatural because you’re forced to f- to follow this script, which your brain can’t cope because there are three elements, knowledge, limitation.
There is a cognitive limitation and time limitation. This is described by Simon Herbert. You know, he won the Nobel Prize, is called limited, you know, sorry, cognitive, bounded,… Sorry, you need to cut this. so it’s- Yeah. So what– So thank you. So what you actually described is exactly that. You have a cognitive limitation, [00:29:00] knowledge limitation, and time limitation as human being. And this has been the beginning of the psychology of decision-making. It’s called bounded rationality. Us as a human, we cannot cope. We are not computers on that side.
And that causes the biases that we’ve been talking about right now
Dan: okay. So does that mean that’s a, that’s an opening for AI, to, make decisions for us?
Marino: ‘Cause we’re definitely not computers.
- I prefer not to talk about the AI, but, if, … because it’s too different. it’s another technology from my point of view. people are starting to think that the rationality behind is just another technology. Probably the things that I would say to our listeners, is actually there is a very good book, written by Daniel Kahneman, and it’s called, Thinking, Fast and Slow.
It’s very, popular. and, if you read that book, a lot of what we’ve been talking is, very well covered. and if you like podcasts, [00:30:00] there are podcasts called A Nudge by, Phil Agnew, where he talks about, you know, these things. So they are very easy for people. The more you listen and read about these things, the more things you become natural about it and less prescriptive.
Adam: Yeah, prescriptive and the other word that came into my head then was contrived. So the, as soon as it starts becoming contrived, some, and you’re rehearsing it and you’re trying to, you know, j- just repeating some sentence you rehearsed earlier, I think you’re gonna, you’re gonna lose it.
You’re gonna lose it. it’s gotta be, it’s all, for me, it’s gotta be about establishing that trust and relationship and fit first of all. at, for a product like an MSP service, right? If you’re just gonna sell an ice cream, then clearly it’s a different type of transaction, right? but, but if you’re selling a high risk, high cost complex service like an MSP service, then it’s gotta be about trust ultimately.
Dan: and for me, I think this brings back to [00:31:00] Adam’s point that, and not to deliberately interweave the title of this podcast, it is a numbers game. i- if you’ve more prospects in your pipeline, you have more sales meetings, you’re gonna become more practiced, not rehearsed. And, and therefore, that, that’s the name of the game really.
You’ve gotta be, you’ve gotta be pr- practicing and getting better at this. This is an acquired skill over time. It’s not something you can immediately, yeah
Adam: understanding who are good fit clients for you as well in, in that particular situation. and, and getting better at understanding, do you know what? This just isn’t gonna work for us. We’re not getting on, you know. you want something…
You’re just talking about price, for example. Well, that is part of it, but it’s not the whole lot of it, and actually we need to talk about all the rest of it as well. so, so, so yeah, I think, and the more you can repeat that, like anything, the more you repeat anything, the better you get at it, right?
So, so yeah, you need to get out there, you need to have lots of [00:32:00] conversations. but good faith conversations, where you can build that trust, not try to sell in a, in some kind of contrived, cynical way because it’s not gonna work. That’s my view.
Marino: Yeah, that’s just it
Dan: a book recommendation, a podcast recommendation, and some, and some pretty good points there. We’re pro- probably about at the end of our episode. if anyone, Marino wants to carry on the conversation, how best to get in touch?
Marino: by LinkedIn, they can get in touch and I’m very happy to, you know, engage. You know, it’s, free things. It’s nothing to do with my work. It’s my pleasure of doing things and, yeah, absolutely. So Adam, Daniel, I really would like to thank you for what you’ve done. You know, it’s, something from my heart, from my pleasure.
It’s not about selling, as we said. So thank you again for hosting me.
Adam: Great. Thank you
Marino: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye