In this episode, Richard Coulthard from Ison Harrison Solicitors joins the hosts to provide a comprehensive look at Employer Ownership Trusts (EOTs). The discussion covers the growing popularity of EOTs in the Managed Service Provider (MSP) space, their tax advantages, the practical aspects and benefits of transitioning to employee ownership, and the long-term financial and operational implications. Richard explains how EOTs enable business owners to sell their shares to a trust for the benefit of employees, tax-free profit distributions, and reduced corporation tax. The episode also addresses the succession planning process, the impact on company culture, financial safeguards, and the responsibilities of the trust versus day-to-day management. The conversation emphasises that while the tax benefits are significant, the overarching motivation for considering EOTs should be the legacy and future success of the business.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:13 Understanding Employee Ownership Trusts (EOTs)
02:02 Tax Benefits and Financial Implications
02:50 Profit Distribution and Employee Benefits
08:13 Management and Operational Structure
13:47 Valuation and Regulatory Compliance
14:55 Personal Experiences and Case Studies
23:55 Comparing EOTs with Other Exit Strategies
30:30 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Richard Coulthard on LinkedIn by clicking here –https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-coulthard-8b840677
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here –https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris/
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here –https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript:
Daniel: [00:00:00] Richard, thanks for joining us.
Richard: Uh, thanks for inviting me. It’s great to be here today.
Daniel: Uh, you are, you’re very welcome. And, both Adam and I are re really intrigued by our topic, today. well, EOT Employer Ownership Trust. a relatively young. concepts, but gaining traction, increasing traction within the MSP space. so Richard, when you said you’d be happy to come on and give us a bit of an explainer, I,I couldn’t say no.
So, so, so Richard o over to you, perhaps you could just give us a very brief introduction to, to kick us off, and then Adam and I can perhaps probe you with some questions as we go.
Richard: Yeah, absolutely. I’m delighted to be here. so, Eisen Harrison Solicitors, we ourselves are 100% employee owned. So I’m not just talking about the legal aspect of this, but also the practical sides having been through it, ourselves. So, employee ownership trust OTs for short, actually came [00:01:00] into force over 10 years ago, but no one really. Understood them. they’re a little complicated at first glance, but actually, they’ve become. Increasingly populous, particularly in light of tax changes around capital gains tax. And people often talk about, you know, the John Lewis model. It’s not technically the John Lewis model, but people refer to it, in that way. Essentially, what it is the owners of the business selling at least a majority stake, but more often than not 100% of the shares in a business to a trust. The beneficiaries of that trust are the employees of the company and. So this is a form of succession planning ultimately, importantly, the sellers don’t have to leave the business and in fact, ordinarily don’t leave the business.
They will stay as employees. but it’s a way of them realizing the capital [00:02:00] value of the shares. There are a number of tax benefits to. to all the parties concerned, the seller, the employees, and the company of this. And that’s one of the reasons these have become so popular. So the seller, the existing shareholders can sell, a. 100% of the shares in the business, or less, they have to sell at least 51% to get the tax treatment, but most will do 100% and they pay no tax whatsoever. So it doesn’t matter whether they sell their business for, you know, 500,000 or 500 million, there’s no capital gains tax to pay on the disposal of those shares. Subject, of course, to compliance with various rules. it’s not quite that straightforward. But the headline is there’s no tax, no capital gains, tax payable on the disposal. Um, not only that, but the employees. Going forward after the sale can earn up to 3,600 pounds per year as a profit distribution and pay no income tax on [00:03:00] that whatsoever.
Still pay national insurance and there’s no income tax and any distributions above that level, are subject to income tax. But that’s, it’s akin to a dividend. It’s not technically a dividend, but, the profits going forward, subject to any, Contractual requirements in terms of repaying the seller their capital, which I can come on to. but the employees share in the profits of the business and a large amount of that, is tax free. But not only that, the company also can have a significant corporation tax saving because any employee distribution. Pays or any profit distribution to the employees comes off the profits of the company, and therefore reduces the amount of corporation tax that is paid.
So unlike a dividend which comes out after Corporation tax doesn’t affect your profits. A profit distribution to the employees under the trust is an employment expense. So reduces your [00:04:00] profit, thereby reducing your corporation tax. So there, there could be significant savings all
Adam: Can I just check is that up to that maximum 3,600?
Richard: No, it’s whatever you distribute. So as an example, as a firm, we converted, over three years ago now, three and a half years ago, we’ve done three separate distributions to our employees over that time. First year we did 3,600. Um, second year we did 4,000. Third year we did 4,000 per employee.
Now we’ve got over 300 employees, so call it 1.2 million, thereabouts. That entire 1.2 million comes off our profits. And therefore we only pay corporation tax on the net figure having already paid that distribution. So the corporation saving to US corporation tax saving to us, well, I can’t do the math in my head with what, 300,000?
Something like that. incorporation tax saving. So there’s a lot of benefits to this [00:05:00] avenue from the seller’s perspective, their question is gonna be, well, how do I get paid? You know, I’m selling my
business
Adam: sorry to interrupt, Richard. Sorry. Just one more question on that point. are the trusts and the committees that are managing the trusts or the leadership team of the company, are they using this tax efficient way to compensate sal salaries and people in general?
Or is this always deemed a kind of bonus structure? how do those sort of components equate?
Richard: Yeah, so you not replacing existing salary. So what you can’t do is take someone who’s on 30,000, let’s say, and reduce their salary to 27,000, say, well, we’ll pay you 3000 pounds of profit distribution. That’s tax avoidance. That’s not allowed. So. Employees contracts of employment do not change. They are still employed by the company on whatever terms of employment they are currently employed. This is entirely a bonus linked to the profits of the
Adam: But in theory, you could hold their [00:06:00] salaries at 30. At 30,000, and you could increase their bonuses year on year.
Richard: you wouldn’t because of tax avoidance rules. they’re two, two completely
separate issues. employment is their employment, and they just happen to be a beneficiary of the trust subject to certain qualifications. So, um, so you, for instance, you normally exclude short term employees, those up to 12 months. Service from being a beneficiary of the trust. So they’ve gotta have been there for a certain period of time. There’s also objective rules about the, how the profit distribution works, which I’ll explain separately from the seller’s perspective. they’ve sold their business, and they need to be paid for that value. Ordinarily what happens is the seller will take any excess cash that’s in the business on completion. So quite a lot of businesses have built up sums of money in reserves over a period of [00:07:00] years, which is not. Very easy or tax efficient to get out because they’d have to take as a dividend and be taxed accordingly. So normally the seller will take that excess or the bulk of that excess cash on deal day, on completion, and then the rest of it is then paid out over a period of time, out of the profits of the business, and typical earnout periods. Between six and 10 years. You know, if you’ve got a business that you are valuing with a five times multiple for argument’s sake, five times the average net profit ebitda, well, obviously EBITDA is before your taxation, so you’re gonna be looking at a longer period than that, which is why typically ends up being somewhere between six and 10 years. You can finance it, that is possible. some banks will give, you know. Lending against invoices or against assets in the business property or general cash flow lens so that you can finance some of it if that’s the route you want to go down. But that’s entirely down [00:08:00] to the discretion of the, the vendor and the management team.
But ultimately they’re paid out over a period of time. At an affordable rate linked to the profits of the business. That’s how they, get paid out. The sellers stay in the business as employees. So they can still be directors, they can still run the business, they can still get a market rate salary. They don’t get dividends ’cause they’re not a shareholder anymore, but they can still run the day-to-day operations of, um, of the business technically. are two layers of management, so to speak, with within the business. You still have your board of directors of the trading business, which run the business on a day-to-day basis, and exactly the same way as any other business, um, which can include the sellers, it can include other members of the management team.
but they make decisions sat above the directors of the business. That is then the trust. And the trust has. Trustees and they act as [00:09:00] representatives of the shareholders being the trusts, and therefore the beneficiaries of that is the employees. And that is made up a combination of. The sellers, they can be trustees as well.
they can’t have a majority on the trust. You can’t have two sellers. And then those two sellers are the sole trustees that they can’t have a majority. But you’d normally have the sellers, you’d normally have an independence, like a non-exec director. you’d probably have another board member, at least one of the board members.
There’s someone else on the management team who wasn’t a seller. often than not, you’d have an employee. So someone who’s senior, probably longstanding, but not necessarily a director, and they are there to make decisions that would normally be made by shareholders. So you know, if they want to sell the business or if they wanted to liquidate the business and certain other. bits and pieces as required, but the day-to-day operations is still run by the [00:10:00] directors. That’s often one of the questions that we get asked is, do the trust of the employees run the business? No, they don’t. they might have a greater degree of influence and say, and they’ve got a vested interest in the success of the business.
but they’re not making decisions as to who gets what pay rise or, you know, what contracts they enter into or anything like that. Statistically, employee owned businesses, do outperform their competitors. And there’s a, there’s been a lot of research into this, and the rationale for that is, is relatively obvious that the employees are directly benefiting in the success of the business.
So the more successful the business, the more profitable the business, the more they ultimately are capable of earning. I said I’d come back to the point of profit distribution because I think that was one of the questions that you were wanting to understand is how that works. what it is not is a bonus scheme whereby, you know, the directors can go, well, John gets this, Sally gets that.
Peter [00:11:00] gets, you know, the, you can’t have that. That discretion to pick and choose what people get, you have to have an objective set of rules about who gets what. And there’s only four bases on which it can be linked. So, it can be fixed so all employees get the same. it can be linked to remuneration, so higher. Earning employees get a bigger share of that pot. Um, you can link it to length of service, so longer serving employees get a higher share and you can also link it to hours worked, which are largely discount, but you can discount for part-time workers and things like that. And you can do a combination.
So you could go, well, 50% of the pot is fixed, so everyone gets the same for that portion of the pot. And 50% is linked to. Remuneration, let’s say. Okay. Um, so there’s ways of doing that. Now, outside of that, one of the questions we get asked was how do we reward the management team? How do [00:12:00] we reward the people who are gonna be running the business and driving the business forward?
And because they’re not gonna have any shares, probably, you could have the management team buying some of the shares potentially that is an option. It gets a bit complicated, but you can do that. Most commonly what people do is they have what we d term to be a director’s bonus scheme. So, so they’d either ring fence a certain proportion of the profits of the business and go, that’s paid to the directors, which could include the sellers, for example, or they might link it to the amount of the employee distribution, the profit distribution.
So they might go, well, an equivalent sum. To the profit distribution to the employees is paid to the directors, but there’s only a handful of directors, therefore they get a bigger share of that distribution and they get the employee profit distribution anyway, anyway. ’cause they’re, they are, an employee.
So there’s different ways of doing that. You could do something like growth shares,for the directors. The important thing of, for all of [00:13:00] this though, ’cause it is a more complicated model. Everyone’s gotta be incentivized. The seller’s gotta be incentivized to make sure that they get the right price. They’re gonna get paid in a timely manner. They’ve got the protection and security for that. The management team who are not sellers need to be properly incentivized, not just in the immediate aftermath of a sale, but long term for the success of the business. And the employees have gotta see some sort of tangible benefit.
So it’s all well and good. Um, saying, oh, we’ve got this great scheme we’re gonna do, you know, an EOT and the employees that all there, but you’re not gonna see any benefit out of that for 10 years, you know, once the seller’s paid off. So it needs some clear, careful thought and planning to make sure that benefits everyone during that period of time. in terms of the process, You need to get tax clearance. The HMLC need to approve this so the sellers can’t just say, well. I value my business at [00:14:00] 10 million pounds. I know I’ve only been trading six months, but it’s definitely worth 10 million pounds. The HMRC do check that the value that the sellers put on the business is fair and reasonable, um, and it has to be independently verified by, an independent value to make sure that it is fair and reasonable. So they need to approve that, they need to improve the underlying structure of the,the EOT. you may need to get consent from a regulator. probably less applicable in, uh, in the Ms P space. But if you are regulated by a particular, entity such as the FCA, for example, you might have some of your. Your listeners who have FCA, approvals or what have you. So they may need to have it approved. ’cause it is a change of ownership ultimately, that needs to be thought through as well,on that. And I think bringing the management team is in, into the discussions relatively early can be hugely beneficial.
That’s certainly how we approached this when we went through this [00:15:00] process, we had. Three original shareholders, three founders at the time. then five of us, myself included, came in as the sort of new directors to run a business and sort of take over that operation. And we were brought into this very early in the process and actually helped shape. How the EOT was structured before it went through, and we actually communicated to our staff as well about six months before we completed and got their engagement as to what input they wanted to have in terms of running the business. Now, don’t get me wrong, we’ve had some. Quite ridiculous suggestions, which I won’t repeat.
But we’ve also had some very sensible suggestions from people as to ways that we could make efficiencies in the business. And we’ve seen a huge benefit from the conversion, when we converted, uh, 1st of January, 2022. we were about 16 million pound turnover and we’ll be over 30 [00:16:00] million pound this year, so we’re not far off doubling our size in what will be for financial years. You got a question there then?
Daniel: We, we’ve just had such a lot of information there in a short space of time. So, can I can only thank you enough for, for the, yeah. very clear, explanation. I’ve got about 80 900,000 questions for you. So, so I’m gonna start, I’m gonna start with the first one and sort of raise above some of the detailed questions that I’m sure some of our listeners have to perhaps, why is this format available? Why are the tax benefits so attractive? what is the intent of this, tax legislation to do? Is it to keep businesses centred in the UK with local ownership?
Richard: there’s a range of reasons, for this and almost regardless of your political allegiance, shall we say, there this kind of something for everyone, on this, it ensures a [00:17:00] wider distribution of wealth. so, you know, whilst. is losing, shall we say, the revenue from capital gains at the upfronts. It increases the spending power of a wider proportion of the population. Now, if I take ourselves as an example, we distribute it, as I said, 4,000 pounds per employee to circa 300 people last year. I don’t know what they’ve all spent it on, but in all likelihood, that’s been spent on, you know, doing out the kitchen, buying new furniture, paying for a holiday, paying off debt, all of these things.
So that money is going back into the economy in other forms that corporation tax or other businesses, all of these other things. So, so the money eventually does go back around in a circle. So like the government ultimately loses this. If that money, my theory anyway is if that money is retained by within private equity [00:18:00] or a small number of people, that money’s more likely to be saved, invested, potentially not within the uk.
So you’ve gotta think on a much broader basis and purely, well, how, hang on the, this is costing the government money in terms of capital gains tax. Because actually when you look on the wider piece, it results in a wider distribution of wealth and greater a parity on wealth distribution longer term.
Daniel: Okay. Very good. make, makes, makes perfect sense and I think it, it settles in my mind that there’s a longevity to this. As you say, it’s perhaps not gonna be, tinkered with too much by, successive, perhaps different governments and,
Richard: Yeah.
we can only work on what the tax rules are as they are to date. Now what I would say is the government did consult on this, last year in 2024, and actually revised some of the rules in October, 2024. There, there was a. And that was really more around compliance and making sure that people are doing it for the right reasons and the valuations are fair and things like that. [00:19:00] Um, but they haven’t changed any of the tax rules. and my feeling is if they were going to change the tax rules, they would’ve used what was quite an extensive consultation last year to do so. so. my view is I don’t envisage. Any change in the immediate future around taxation rules for OTs? That’s not to say it would never change, but if, if people are thinking about succession planning and want to look at this as a viable option, I would do so now, because your tax rules will be based on when you complete the transaction.
Now you’ve got a. Bear in mind that there’s obviously been changes around capital gains tax and business asset disposal relief. So business asset disposal relief was up to 10% pre 6th of April, 2025. It now goes up to 14% for this tax year and will increase to 18% in April, 2026. The majority of [00:20:00] business owners. Qualify for that relief. and if you don’t, then you’re gonna be paying tax at 24% and you’re gonna be paying it at that rate on a, anything over a million pounds anyway. so the tax savings are significant. what I would say is if a seller is solely looking at this as an option for tax benefits, it might not. Be right for them. Um, you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be on board with the principle. The tax benefits are certainly a nice to have, but I don’t think it should be the sole reason to do it.
Daniel: not having the tax tail wagging the transaction dog.
Richard: Correct.
Daniel: Yes. Um, and, and I guess also, in the case of your experience, the value of the entity will change over time. You are locking in a value today. but if you retain that business and were able to emulate the [00:21:00] performance the business has had post the EOT effectively, you’d be maybe it wouldn’t be worth twice as much, but it would certainly be worth, you would hope, more as a business double the size than it was before in, you know, in a short space of
Richard: Yeah, there, there’s, and there’s a lot to consider here, and this is one of the reasons I say that most people do a hundred percent sale. And because the tax treatment is a one time deal,
you can’t sell 60% today and then sell 40% two years down the line and get the same tax treatment. You could still sell that 40% to the trust, but you’re gonna be. Taxed as capital gain tax in the usual way,
that. So it’s a one-time deal, that, but it’s a great mechanism, for example, where you’ve got business owners are at different stages of their life. You know, we, we frequently advise, you know, business owners where you’ve got one owner who’s 10, 15, 20 years younger than somebody else, and. They recognize the need to release their [00:22:00] value, but the younger shareholders saying, but I don’t want to retire. So you have a situation whereby they all realize their value, but the younger shareholders can still stay running the business, still stay getting a fair salary and a, a profit distribution and bonus, and all of these things to keep them engaged in running the business.
Daniel: First is perhaps the alternative, where the, the. Older shareholder wants to exit, perhaps the younger shareholders or indeed the younger management team, if they were prepared to take the risk, they could potentially fund,an mb, M-B-I-M-B-I. Yeah. so, but of course that would not perhaps be as tax efficient for the seller.
there’s also some other complications in terms of, and I don’t wanna get overly technical, but in terms of if you’re only exiting one shareholder and not the other shareholders, how that is going to be funded. whether the business has got the money to do [00:23:00] that, whether you can get permission for what we call a company purchase of own shares. And if that’s not possible, then you are looking at creating, holding companies and things like that. So it certainly, you can go down that model. Don’t get me wrong. but there are some complications to think about is what I’m, is what we’re saying. So
Richard: we certainly had, I said, going back to our personal experience, we had three founders.
One in particular was quite clear that he wanted to. Be outta the business within 12 months of completion, which is exactly what he did. And we’ve got, the other two founders are still in the business and they, but they were at different stages in their life and what they ultimately wanted to do.
But this was a solution that actually meant that they all crystallized their value and the two that wanted to stay working could stay working and probably will continue working for a number of years still to come, but the one who wanted to go could go.
Adam: So the one of the fundamental differences, if I [00:24:00] understand this properly here, if you are sitting here as the owner. Looking to sell is the degree of earn. So if you are selling, as a, an actual one-off transaction, you may have a one year, two year earnout process on that, or nothing at all.
here we’re talking maybe a five to 10 year
Richard: Yep.
Adam: earnout process. Now yes, you’ve got your tax benefits, but. You’ve got a completely different journey here in terms of the outcome. So if I understand this correctly, this is less about the money, it’s more about the legacy. It’s more about what you’re leaving behind.
It’s more about what that business is and where you want it to go, and the stewardship behind it. Because if you were doing this purely commercially, you’d never take that risk. Surely you would just take your money.
Richard: It depends on the individuals involved, and so broadly [00:25:00] speaking. You should get a similar value whether you go down a trade sale or DOT. Okay? In theory, they’re both market value. Okay? the difference with a trade sale to a third party buyer is you are probably, but not definitely going to get more on day one. Okay? So, and you’re. In this market, probably unlikely to get the full amount on day one, but you’ll get a much higher percentage typically. Um, and you’re right, you’re gonna have a much shorter earnout period, than what you would have with an EOT. So that is a positive for a trade sale compared to an EOT. Downside of a trade sale against an EOT is you’ve gotta find a buyer. They’re probably gonna do a more rigorous due diligence process. Your tax treatment is different. You’re not gonna be in control of the business post-sale. So the pros and cons to that route, that, that’s one avenue an EOT, positives tax treatment, you’ll have a greater degree of control on the sale. Downside, absolutely. Your earn [00:26:00] out period’s gonna be much longer, and gonna be linked to. The profits of the business going forward. But that would suit a seller who wants to stay in the business, that period of time. You know, this is gonna be about crystallizing a value, and being paid out over a period of time while still being able to run the business.
Whereas a trade sale, they probably want to keep you for a period of time, a year, two years, maybe. But they’re not gonna have control. you can have another shareholder who’s gonna wanna run things their way and things like that. And that’s not for everyone. terms of sellers, so there’s pros and cons to each avenue.
And I’m not saying OTs is a right solution for everyone ’cause it’s not, but it is a solution for, so, and it’s still relatively novel, relatively misunderstood, and so. It is something that needs to be considered as part of a wider succession planning, uh, [00:27:00] piece of advice as to whether it’s a trade sale to a third party buyer, whether it’s a management buyout, whether it’s private equity, whether it’s an EOT. It’s one of a number of factors that any business owner needs to be thinking about when they are thinking about succession planning.
Adam: And if we get back to this earnout process and let’s say, you know, rather than a five to 10 year timescale, we wanna reduce that. So we wanna get some funding now. Because we want say, 50% to be funded externally and let’s reduce that, earn out to three years or four years, say that could be a viable option.
Richard: Absolutely. So.
Adam: and one of, one of the things I understood though was there are certain barriers to that kind of, facility in it from an earnout perspective around the size and scale of the business and the leadership team to take the company forward. So, so what are the kind of guardrails around that?
Richard: [00:28:00] So let’s firstly look at what do we put in place for the seller. To either force overpayment or early payment or that deferred payment, but also to encourage that. ’cause the trust could always decide to overpay. So there’s two safeguards we put on that. Firstly, we normally say we’re gonna set the deferred payment at. Whatever level based on current performance of the business. Okay. But we normally also suggest that actually if the business starts doing really well and starts accumulating cash, which isn’t committed for corporation tax or something like that, that the trust has to pay a certain proportion, say 50% of excess cash above a certain level, beyond what’s needed.
So that’s a contractual requirement. You must overpay in certain circumstances where you can. The second, um, angle, however, is we normally suggest that there’s an interest provision that on the deferred payments you might have an interest [00:29:00] free period, and then an interest rate that applies between, I dunno, three and six years, and then a higher interest rate that applies for six years plus. So for the management team, there’s almost an incentive to look to refinance that because it could end up being as cost effective to take third party funding. And clear that debt than it would be to pay interest to the founders practically, in terms of achieving funding through third parties, there are certain banks that are increasingly in favour of funding this type of transaction. Um, one of the challenges could be that the existing management team. Probably don’t want to be giving personal guarantees. So any third party funding would have to be on the basis that the bank isn’t going to insist upon a personal guarantee. Now, it’s gonna depend on the nature of your business. You know, what’s the risk to [00:30:00] the lender? What are the assets if any of you got secure against? Is there a property? Is there plant machinery? Is there a debtor book? You know, there’s all of these usual factors when it comes to financing. Any deal. but personal guarantees are probably not going to be on the table for any lender. So that can be a challenge, but it always comes down to how much are you looking to borrow, how successful a business is, and all of those usual underwriting considerations.
Daniel: I’d love to, to ask some more questions about valuation, but, w we some somehow we’ve already run out of run outta time, so we’re definitely gonna have to have you back again. Richard, really interesting topic and I think. no disrespect. I’ve probably now got more questions than I had before. but I think that’s because you’ve done such a thorough job in,in opening our eyes to the, to this topic. So, if,if any of our listeners would like to, carry on the conversation, directly, how best to [00:31:00] get in touch.
Richard: yeah, so you can contact me by email or telephone number. So email is, Richard dot C-O-U-L-T-H-A-R-D, at Ison Harrison .co uk or telephone 0113 284 5000 or, we have got a full guide on our website as well, ice and harrison.co uk. We’ve got a full guide to. Converting to an EOT, which they can download and contact us with, uh, questions of for further consultation.
Daniel: Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you very much. And, yeah, any final thoughts from you, Adam?
Adam: well, again, I think this is just scratching the surface, isn’t it, of a highly complex and emotive subject actually. and I think, as always,the thoughts here are, the, there’s so much to it. start building in, start building a plan and talking to different people around this and start to really get to grips with it.
And, but for me, I think the fundamental is less about the money, it’s about the [00:32:00] legacy. I think for me, I think that’s gotta be a clear reason for doing this. as you said earlier, above the tax breaks, above the earnout, it’s gotta be something around, what you want for this business and the people in it.
I think for me.
Richard: yeah,I’d agree with that. And I think it’s. Very emotive. I will always say to business owners, you need to be thinking about your exit probably three to five years out and structuring your business accordingly, whatever exit looks like, and it’s gonna be different for everyone, but you need to start planning it and you know that we get the right solution for you.
Daniel: wise words and a great way to, to finish up the episode. So thank you very much for joining
Richard: for your time. Thank you.