In this episode, Tech Tribe members Daniel and Ben explore the complexities MSPs face when dealing with legacy business applications. They discuss the importance of understanding the client’s perspective and the reasons these outdated systems persist. Ben shares strategies for modernising these systems, including breaking down large problems into smaller ones, virtualising old servers, and involving developers for software support. They also explore the importance of choosing the right platforms and the potential for automating and improving existing processes. The conversation wraps up with insights on working effectively with MSPs, the role of discovery projects, and the burgeoning interest in artificial intelligence within the tech industry.
00:00 Introduction and Background
00:27 Challenges with Legacy Systems
02:38 Approaches to Modernisation
06:37 Support and Maintenance Considerations
09:45 Choosing the Right Technology Stack
12:50 Discovery and Proof of Concept Projects
14:52 Collaboration Between MSPs and Developers
24:05 Automation and Efficiency
29:31 Conclusion and Contact Information
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Ben Lange on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/benlange1
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript;
Daniel: Ben, welcome along.
Ben: Thanks for having me.
Daniel: You’re very welcome. And, I guess for those of, our listeners that don’t know how you and I know each other, we’re, we’re a result of, Tech Tribe networking, aren’t we? That’s how we got to know each other.
Daniel: Absolutely. I think I found you Daniel via Eventbrite. probably not the time to say that we don’t use Eventbrite anymore for the Tech Tribe meetings. But nonetheless, it served a purpose. So Ben, today, We’re, we’re tackling a pretty important topic for MSPs, which is, line of business applications that disrupts the MSPs ultimate ambition and objective of modernizing infrastructure for, for their clients.
Daniel: and. we’ve had some fascinating conversations, at tech drive meetings, which we felt we wanted to share to the wider podcast audience. so an MSP.
Daniel: is talking to you about, they’ve got a, they’ve got a client, they’re, they’re Microsoft 365,they’re using, modern infrastructure, endpoints, networking.
Daniel: The last problem they’ve got though in their environment is. This hundred year old server in the corner running a bit of software that everyone’s petrified of and a box that’s covered in cobwebs. And, you know, it’s a significant risk for the client, and they want to help. Their clients, but they don’t know how they’re not software developers.
Daniel: so Q Ben
Ben: Well, okay. No, thanks for the question. So, I think my personal point of view is I always try to put myself in the shoes of the client. so this legacy application and these, dated servers on premises, they’re still there for a reason. Now, quite often we find that, clients have been, patching and trying to maintain and keep on top of these things for years and years.
Ben: It’s really important to figure out why they’re bothering doing that. So, you know, as you say, they are a risk. and more often than not, is that the applications there that reside on these systems are business critical still in one way, one form or another. and as we know in. Technology. It’s difficult to keep pace with things.
Ben: And today’s world is pow cloud or, you know, Microsoft 365. but there’s still huge amounts of power residing in these legacy platforms, legacy applications, business critical systems and the data slash. Insights that are there. So yeah, they can be a real pain to move. So the way we’d approach it is to try and sort of break the big rock, big problem down into smaller rocks.
Ben: So trying to figure out what does the application actually do and then decide, well, can we replicate that in using modern infrastructure? What is it? What is its power? What is its value for the business? does it need? modernizing, you know, so, so it can play nicer with, more other applications and current infrastructure, or maybe the application itself doesn’t need to be there, but it’s the data, but the data is in bizarre formats, really difficult to extract and transform and then load it into another application.
Ben: so it’s about breaking down the bigger problem into small problems and then trying to deal with those smaller problems. individually, quite often. if it’s that old, you know, modernizing it might be a real challenge, but we’ve done it many times. And, you know, you look at banks and financial services companies, they still have powerful applications written in the 80s that are still kicking on.
Ben: I spoke to someone recently who, works actually in the defence sector and there’s some applications using Oracle forms now still maintained and, you know, widely respected, but Oracle’s moving in a different direction. So what do you do with these applications? so that’s where I’d start really think about the client, why they’ve still got it, and then breaking it down is to, is it the data that’s valuable?
Ben: Is it the functionality? what is it? And then see whether you modernize, rebuild, replicate in some other way. To play nicely with, you know, modern architectures.
Daniel: and I wonder how many, quick fixes haven’t actually been thoroughly followed up. So, the first problem is the hardware with that. That ancient server. So, you know, if there’s a way of just virtualizing that and then moving it to a new host on premise or, or somewhere else in the cloud.
Daniel: and then stop in there. can we, can we recover the server? Is there support for the application still from a third party? how regularly do you come across those sorts of scenarios where you’ve got like no instruction manual, no form of contact, or are you normally in a position where there’s some form of support to, to soften the blow for you?
Ben: Yeah, well, obviously, topically, a lot of the time, it’s the IT support companies in the MSPs that bring us in at this point. You know, you are, and they are the experts with, with networking and physical, and cloud infrastructure. We’re very good at those things, but, we’re more on that software application level.
Ben: So, quite often, the challenge is not so much. That side of things, but all, but trying to reach the original developers, you know, or even, if they are unreachable, which is, you know, developers move on, you know, they move to different companies. We’ve, you know, sadly, we’ve encountered that they have passed away and for whatever reason, and they could be super intelligence as well.
Ben: And that actually adds a layer of complexity because their code is very niche and it’s very, you know, it does some brilliant stuff, but unravelling it takes a lot of time. We’ve, we work with the clients, in the, so it works with large sets of geophysical data and they’ve got multiple bespoke applications designed for different hardware and now more, more recently designed to be, you know, cloud native.
Ben: And even though we did have access to this person, it’s still very difficult to reverse engineer, what’s going on first before you can even affect a change. Yeah, fortunately, if you have access to these people, it makes a lot more possible. If you don’t, then look, nothing’s impossible. It just takes a bit longer.
Ben: And then it comes into the equation of whether or not the values there and it was worth the cost.
Adam: thanks a lot, Ben. And that’s just, I thought was just entered my head here because, one of the, one of the key things I used to advise clients around with bespoke software is always the support component. You know, who’s providing, you know, okay, someone’s going to write it, but then how’s it going to be supported?
Adam: Are they going to support it? Or is a third party going to support it? What happens if they don’t want to support it anymore? Who else, who then supports this software? so how do you tackle that? That solution for your clients around that kind of guarantee around longevity. you know, for decades, potentially, cause I, for me, that would be one of the central questions to ask, you know, how can we ensure this software is still going to be fit for purpose in 10 years time and have the ongoing support?
Adam: I
Ben: Yeah. Well, I mean, firstly, we would suggest choosing your right it support partner. So obviously those sorts of things is definitely more in their wheelhouse. And quite often in these scenarios, we’re working side by side with them. you know, if there isn’t one, then, you know, we take on, cloud hosting support and maintenance of the
Adam: guess. And in particular, I guess I was meaning around the software code, the code support, the updates, the patching, bug fixing,
Ben: I think again, for the way we do it, it’s not everybody’s business. The way we do it is to provide options. I think it’s about making the client aware of What options there are to support it? And you know in the future they may want to bring it all in house So, you know, it’s about opening their eyes as to how to build a team how to have a hand over or if they’re not building in house if there’s IT support partners, MSPs available, if it’s companies like CCQ Tech that build the software or then, you know, transition the support of their legacy systems into our hands, it’s about having the, you know, solid enough contracts and making sure that you’re on hand.
Ben: To do that, probably in the similar world as, as you guys, we have monthly rolling contracts, to make sure that, you know, it’s a pre purchasing time upfront so that we are always on hand to jump in. If there is a big problem that’s happened, maybe Microsoft’s done a big update. Some APIs have broken.
Ben: You just make sure that, your software partner. Has hiked off the resource to make sure that they’re available in good time, but more importantly, to actually make sure that the errors don’t happen in the first place to see updates coming to see problems coming and proactively, put measures in place so that things don’t break
Adam: and presumably. Part of your business model as well is that ongoing support for whatever software you write. So there’s some ongoing recurring monetization, I suppose, of that solution.
Ben: that is an option they can have. Absolutely. And again, it’s before we build it. We often say. You know, if we’re gonna embark on this project, who is gonna support it and how would you like it to happen if you do it with us? These are the pros and cons. If you do it with somebody else or yourselves, this is what could happen.
Daniel: And. I guess one of the, one of the aspects there that I think Adam was getting to was, you know, do you write this in, some random, platform or code that, you know, that is less widely adopted and therefore there’s fewer, fewer or higher priced, skill sets available to, to support it.
Daniel: So, you know, uh, you know, is this, SQL dot net, you know, like everyone supports that, right? so no, no worries there. Or is this something quite random? and,as well as, I think the interesting point there about, you know, who, who is going to do this, do you want to do it in internally or do you want to, do you want a third party to do it?
Daniel: And, so, is that sort of a common discussion point around what the platform should be?
Ben: If they’re in the know, it might be, you know, a lot of our clients, may be new to bespoke software development, or I, you know, are looking to. You know, re-platform modernise their existing apps and don’t know much about this arena, app. we have a preferred stack of technologies, typically the Microsoft stack, which is C sharp dot net.
Ben: but we use lots of different open-source technologies and it is for us. It’s important to, to use the ones that itself are going to be the most supported because. because these applications are, you know, typically complex in nature. They do typically have API. So there’s a flow of data, two ways synchronization between more than one or more applications, you know, using unusual.
Ben: Code bases or frameworks can naturally land you in more hot water than anything else. So it makes sense to stick with the Microsoft stuff. And one of our clients wanted to develop a bespoke to two factor authentication multifactor authentication system using email text messages. You know, these sorts of logins that we’re sort of quite familiar with now, which is fine.
Ben: You know, they really wanted to have. All the code, is as newly built as possible and, you know, not using Microsoft standard OICD for multi factor authentication, which is absolutely fine. The challenge with that is maintaining it is a lot harder. Because, you know, we take the latest security, protocols from Microsoft, and more often than not, they’re automatic updates, you know, if you’re doing things truly bespoke, then, then you’ve got to, you’ve got to really keep your finger on the pulse and maintain it.
Ben: And that requires more time and energy for developers, which increases the cost. So, yes, I think it makes sense to use, you know, industry standard and well respected, tech stacks.
Daniel: And there’s stacks and there’s platforms. So again, just listening to you talk on then thinking, well, where does, something like, dynamics come into this because actually, you know, don’t be at the. Code level be at the platform tool level and then you’re another step up the value chain, if that’s, if that’s the right phrase, do you get, do you do that and how is that something you embrace or
Ben: Yeah. I mean, those sorts of questions we would typically suggest a technology discovery project. you know, these are designed because most people don’t really know the best solution. Do we go bespoke? Do we go off the shelf? Do we get something like dynamics in which is really all singing or dancing platform which has tremendous potential.
Ben: Yes. Potential to supercharge a business, but there’s risks and there’s costs and people want to understand what they’re getting into. So the discovery projects are, you know, can be very different from, client to client. But if we’re looking at something like that again, it’s about, well, what are we trying to achieve?
Ben: What do you have there? already. what do your customers use and what do they expect is, does that come into it? so yeah, it’s about just doing a good amount of like work, trying to understand the client, their objectives, but also their business domain. You know, how much does that come into it?
Ben: And not every industry may. You know, work, work as well with something like Dynamics as another, you know, and then if you’re looking at things like Dynamics and Microsoft, then, you know, why not Oracle? Why not IBM? And these sorts of things. So it’s about really marrying up business domain, the challenges and the objectives, and then just going out and putting, doing some work and putting that experiential lens onto it.
Ben: You know, you’ve mentioned Legacy systems, Windows 2000 service on premise. We talked a lot about the cloud, loads of buzzwords, which is great. But over the last 20 years that we’ve been in business, we’ve moved, you know, things have moved on so, so much. So you really need a good level of experience to see what’s, what can happen, what can go wrong.
Ben: And try to avoid these things. So you’re going to put that experiential lens onto it and surface those options. And then, you know, eyeball ballpark what each option will take to bring about and then give the client those options, you know, as visible, and clear as it can be,
Adam: I was just, trying to think of what you do through the lens of most of our listeners. So MSP owners out there, what’s the best way for them to work alongside you on a project, if at all? you know, what tips would you have or how would you prefer to work with, you know, the local it guys, whether it’s the internal team or whether it’s outsourced, what’s the recipes for success there?
Ben: I think, you know, how to build trust. really, you know, both of our industries is massively reliant on earning the trust of our clients. and if MSPs are exploring relationships with developers, that trust needs to be earned on both sides. So I would start there and try and understand, you know.
Ben: Again, how each other work, whether you even like each other, you know, whether there are projects that you could potentially collaborate upon, you know, there, there may not be, and there’s, you know, there’s, you know, the world of software applications and itis massive. And we may, we all have our sort of speciality.
Ben: So I’d really look at the relationship between the two, but then it also, I’d be looking at the market, you know, a lot, For what I understand, it’s the same with us. We always try and understand is how we can add and bring more value to our clients. and that’s, you know, it’s not just about building applications.
Ben: So I think when it comes to MSPs and software developers, it’s about saying how can the software development company add value. To the MSP clients. And how can you collaborate to bring those proposals sometimes maybe even unasked to the clients and saying, listen, we’ve been thinking we’ve been looking at your industry.
Ben: We know your business because we’ve been working together for so long. And we think there’s a couple of potentials here, but maybe you’d like to explore them.
Daniel: and, I think from my perspective, thinking back to my days, account managing clients writing roadmaps, I’d be looking down the estate, making observations and recommendations for what they should do. And, yeah, line of business application, unsupported. We don’t know anything about it.
Daniel: we think this is a big risk and then I’d have a big. Blank space. Like I, I don’t wanna get sucked into this . so, actually having something, standard that I can, sell, that the client can buy. and I think that’s to your previous point about having a discovery.
Daniel: So if there is a, like a workshop that I can. propose and it is, for all intents and purposes, a, a, a generic, unbiased approach. as you say, we’ve applied some experience, to, to, to really, really assess what the options are. and if that’s a, if that’s a set. Set price, or some way of me easily calculating it so that I can then, go and talk to the client and know that I can then come back to you with his, the attributes, you told me to confirm and there’s the price.
Daniel: And I’ve agreed that price with them over to you, Ben to deliver,
Ben: Absolutely right. And I think that reminded me, Daniel, when we spoke a year or two again to actually package this up as such. And I created one specifically for IT support companies and MSPs, and I think I even popped it onto the Tech Tribe portal. But it’s a good point, you know, because with our shared client base or our shared audiences or shared market, we constantly need to remind ourselves that they rely on us.
Ben: to help them with technology choices. They rely on us to, you know, solve their problems through technology and to really understand what they’re trying to do. and and these discovery projects are aimed to provide all parties With insights, different options, and to estimate the scale.
Ben: And they only really take a couple of days. So you mentioned workshops, our average number of workshops for a discovery project is three, three two hour workshops. So easy to put a low price tag on it. and then create that goodwill with the client. and then leave it to them as to what they want to do next.
Ben: And they feel comfortable that they are informed appropriately.
Daniel: and even just, an educational. Piece would be useful as like a pre precursor to that. So, here are the different types of option. you’ve got an off the shelf product. You’ve got a platform such as dynamics. There’s a fully bespoke and there’s. Various flavours of that from ultra rare to, industry standard and, and here’s the kind of full process that you need to, that you need to go through, to, to, to work out what the likely needs are, and, yeah, it sort of folds back into that no like and trust, stages of, of, of, of building that relationship.
Daniel: So,
Ben: Definitely.
Adam: Yeah. I mean, I’m just seconding that, because, sort of filling the gap between the MSP’s understanding and the client’s understanding around the software landscape, the pros and cons, of all of the different approaches. and you know, unless you have come from a software developing background, if you’re an MSP owner, the chances are this is fairly alien.
Adam: And also you don’t want to kind of, you don’t want to, lose sight of what your main skillset is. And it’s not software. Once you start digging into all the, all this other world, you can, you know, can unravel very quickly and become quite messy, I think. So, so I think that sort of, being able to position someone like yourself to come in, from an educational perspective and just talk about the opportunities, how it could look, you know, what’s the upfront costs, what’s the ongoing costs, what are the risks, how long would it take, you know, and provide that kind of.
Adam: additional piece of, educational expertise. I think there’s a real asset there actually for MSPs to be able to offer that as some kind of service.
Ben: I appreciate that Totally. and what I’d add to that as well is, I dunno whether, you know, businesses have been indoctrinated possibly by the sort of the powerful. Sales and marketing mechanisms from corporate companies, big tech companies, but you don’t have to, invest in a big solution all at once, you know, we typically off the back of a discovery project, we would recommend a proof of concept project.
Ben: So rather than a couple of days discovery where. Not only are you surfacing options, but you’re really gaining that trust. You can then move on to a proof of concept or a prototype project where again, you’re trying not to break the bank, only investing a few weeks of work, but either building something really small or in some other way, proving that the concepts you’re trying to introduce is going to work.
Ben: And again, it doesn’t always involve. Bespoke software, you know, so if we’re looking at dynamics if we’re looking at salesforce and all these other things, it’s Why wouldn’t we why wouldn’t we these are tried and tested amazing pieces of kit, you know, amazing technology Why wouldn’t we bring them on board?
Ben: Well, one of them is do they play nicely? With our other systems, you know, are we going to be ending up with people doing things are their own way and then just downloading data for one system into a spreadsheet and putting it up into another one, you know, so I think it’s really, you know, in my world, a software world involving the users involving people at each steps really important.
Ben: So before companies are looking to invest in. Big platforms or anything really maybe embark on a proof of concept or a prototype project, which looks to tackle the low hanging fruit. Let’s do something impactful so we can prove that introducing this functionality is going to be used or it’s actually going to have the impact.
Ben: that we want. We prove the two systems can talk to each other before going to the next step. And a lot of businesses may not have thought about this sort of step by step gather the information, get your KPIs all there and ratify your theories before push a go on. I know often as well, obviously, if we get a, you get big senior directors coming in from company, you know, other companies, so they’re new in the role that operations directors or finance or, CTOs or whatever it is, they have a way of doing things and they often come with their own ideas and beliefs, which is absolutely fine.
Ben: But perhaps what they know and like may not be appropriate. And maybe they just want to test things step by step to see if they’re making those right choices.
Daniel: and, as you were talking there, that, that puts me in mind of, of another, peer that, we, we network with at, at Tech Tribe meetings, where, his, his specialty is, taken. Excel spreadsheets and, that are effectively applications in disguise and making them proper applications.
Daniel: like you mentioned, the spreadsheets there, it’s where we go to. It’s not a database, it’s a spreadsheet, you know, but how many people, how many MSPs have clients that are so heavily reliant on. Spreadsheets that are totally not fit for the purpose that they’re used. So perhaps there’s even, it’s not just legacy apps on a box covered in cobwebs.
Daniel: It’s a, it’s what people are doing today in office productivity tools.
Ben: Yeah. And you know, the challenge I come up against and MSPs should also, and their audiences should also be really aware of is that, you know, is that Continuum, if you like, sorry, I’m a Star Trek fan, but you’ve got on one end, you’ve got off the shelf. It’s ready made. And if it’s SAS, then you’re just going to rent on the subscription base is low risk because you can cancel any time, but is it low risk?
Ben: Because once you’re embedded and then you try and move away in a year or two, you’re really stuck. and then the other end is truly is full bespoke, which typically has higher upfront capital costs, which, which At the time they present a larger risk. So, you know, which one do you, which one do you go for?
Ben: and again, that’s something that, you know, audiences need to be sort of guided through that process to understand, you know, over a five year period, what’s going to be more costly, what’s going to be fit for purpose. And, you know, we come across spreadsheets. All over the place. We use them for ourselves.
Ben: And ultimately, there is again, brilliant piece of kit, but they are highly flexible, but often shared with many different people that can easily accidentally delete things. And yes, we have version history and revisions, which is fine. But then you’ve got the question is, are you even working on the right file and the right version of it?
Ben: and you know, some companies put a lot of important data into these spreadsheets and rely on them. So, you know, we always say, yeah, If machines are better at doing something, then let them do that. It really needs to be automated, freeing up the human mind that sentience, that creativity and innovation that, you know, while obviously recent media of, sort of, you know, Talked a lot about what technology and obviously the buzzword of artificial intelligence.
Ben: What it can do is nowhere near at that sort of Cognitive thinking level yet. So automate what you can and free up the human mind to do what you want And recently one of our clients basically taken Excel As far as you can go. It was brilliant. The macros on this is almost a database and an application and everything unto itself, and it’s calculating, thermal entropy, ropy in refrigeration systems.
Ben: Problem they had is there were so many calculations when they hit go, they had to run it overnight and sometimes it still wasn’t finished. And then you’re wondering, has it crashed? You know? and that was really interesting. we created a web app in three weeks. That replicates the calculations and the complexities there in a modern graphical user interface front end that you access via a browser And the calculations were done in a couple of minutes as opposed to eight eight nine hours.
Daniel: Right. Interesting. So, uh, we talked earlier about the tools and tactics that, that an MSP can, can employ to, surface and then advance these opportunities. would that be another like workshop type approach? could that be, let’s do an office productivity review and look at where you’re misusing.
Daniel: Excel, for example, and, could that be the sort of work that an MSP could, could work with you or offers on?
Ben: Oh, well, I mean potentially I think it’s also horses for courses. So when we’re, when MSPs are thinking about their client base, some of them are going to be prone towards innovation. Some of them are really excited by automating things and really trying to understand of, you know, I’m paying two people’s salary to do these jobs, but actually if I can automate 50 percent of it, then those two people are going to be so much more productive in what they’re doing, particularly if those roles.
Ben: Our client facing, or, or in somehow sort of engaging with their onward customers, you know, which improve improves relationships, improves, customer retention. So, you get business owners and directors that are really thinking, you know, how can we best make use of technology? So if I was an MSP or an IT support company, I’d be thinking which of my clients.
Ben: You know, it doesn’t want to, it doesn’t have, you know, six figures to throw at these things, but it’s kind of interested in what technology can do for them, what innovation could do for them, and maybe they do have a lot of spreadsheets, then yeah, but very low cost, discovery or low cost workshops can just get to the root of things quite quickly.
Ben: And a lot of the time, if we, you know, we find together and, you know, the MSPs are just as important in those workshops as well, it’s, we come together and say, Don’t do anything. You know, it isn’t worth the risk or it’s what you’re trying to achieve. While maybe it’s feasible, but is a much bigger, larger project that you might be thinking.
Ben: So maybe don’t go down that path. So it’s really important to be authentic. You know, everybody wants happy clients as well. So you don’t want to, you don’t want to go down a path that’s unlikely, but definitely spreadsheets. you know, we’re really talking about. Business processes, business operations, and business logic.
Ben: and everybody does things their own different way. and if they are a little bit specialized and if they do have unique processes, then they will probably be using tools like, Excel or whatever it is in an unusual way. And it’s not optimal. and the return, for automate these processes can be, you know, 10x.
Ben: 20x, you know, and it’s worth investing a small amount of money to explore that.
Daniel: Right. Good. And, well, we’re nearly at time, maybe a little bit over, budget, but, some really interesting. really interesting topics there, I think, and, and certainly some good actions as well in, in terms of how you can actually start to break this down into, into bite size, budgetable, opportunities to work with, work with the clients on and de risk for the MSP as well.
Daniel: So, as always been a pleasure talking to you, if any of our listeners want to carry on the conversation, how best do they get hold of you?
Ben: yeah, feel free to contact me by email Ben at ccq. tech t e c h Or I’m on LinkedIn Ben Lang l a n g e and just lastly if I could throw it in there We have a, you know, I mentioned it once or twice, but a lot of people are super interested in what artificial intelligence and machine learning can do for them, whether it’s generative AI or predictive analytics.
Ben: and that’s a really great use case for Discover. I’m sure MSPs and IT support companies are getting the questions. What can AI do for us? and you know, we’re really at the. forefront of some of these questions and doing a lot of this, even with large corporates who have loads of developers, loads of skills are looking for innovative companies to help them.
Ben: And I think that’s a good start for 10 as well.
Adam: Sounds like, an opportunity for another episode there, Dan. Indeed.
Daniel: has a client who knows someone at the pub who’s using AI to make millions. And can you do that for us too?
Adam: if I was just thinking, actually, if you went to university. Last year to do a software development course, in three years time, when you come out of university, are your skills going to be obsolete? I mean, on the basis that universities are generally five to 10 years behind actually what’s going on.
Adam: anyway, look, that’s another question. That’s another question for another episode, unless you can answer it in, in, in, like 10 seconds.
Ben: Well, I would say that it’s so new that the universities are the ones in the know. So actually people coming out of the university, while it is obsolete quite quickly, those are the people that you may want to scoop up.
Adam: Well, there we go. And on that bombshell.
Daniel: Indeed. Thank you very much for your time, Ben.
Ben: Thank you, gentlemen. Real pleasure. Thank you for having me.
