In this episode of ‘It’s a Numbers Game,’ Daniel and Adam welcome back legal expert Kim Simmonds discussing MSP (Managed Service Provider) contracts, shifting the focus from risk mitigation to revenue generation. They discuss how contracts can prevent revenue leakage through strategies such as service credits, proper termination clauses, and exit transition clauses. Kim emphasises the importance of using your own well-crafted templates and the pitfalls of relying on client-provided contracts. They also touch upon practical credit management, handling insolvency scenarios, and learning about the Insolvency Act. The episode wraps up with a brief look at Kim’s SaaS platform, Cloud Contract 365, which helps MSPs create, manage, and review contracts efficiently.
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
00:32 Contracts as Revenue Generating Tools
01:53 Key Contract Clauses for MSPs
03:09 Service Level Agreements (SLAs) and Penalties
07:33 Exit Transition Clauses and Termination
13:28 Handling Client Non-Payment
19:57 Revenue Protection Strategies
25:17 Cloud Contracts 365 Overview
29:12 Final Thoughts and Future Topics
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
When UK suppliers must continue to supply insolvent companies
Connect with Kim Simmonds on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimsimmonds/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript;
Daniel: Kim, welcome back to It’s a Numbers Game.
Kim: Lovely to be here, Daniel. Thank you.
Daniel: For those, regular listeners, will have, heard a, probably one of our earlier episodes actually with, Kim talking about what MSP contracts should contain, from a general perspective. and, we, we felt there was some unfinished, unfinished topics from that.
Daniel: So, so yeah, so welcoming you back to, to perhaps delve into. maybe looking at contracts more from a revenue generation rather than a risk, perspective. so, so Kim, yeah. What, what should we be, how should we be viewing contracts in terms of revenue?
Kim: Yeah, thank you, Daniel. It’s such a great question because a lot of people come to lawyers with what, how do we mitigate risk, right? But they need to flip it to how do contracts support revenue growth. And it’s such an interesting spin when you think about it because no one. Realizes that contracts can be your revenue generating tool.
Kim: And the reason that it should be your revenue generating tool is because when you look at contracts, you look at how is it protecting that business from leaking the cash on an everyday basis, right? Things like, for example, you know, the very real tasks of MSPs is failure to deliver on time, right?
Kim: How do you do that? When you’re delivering a professional services and you’re not hitting milestones, what penalties are you suffering as a consequence of that? Is that actually cash that you might give out? Potentially, yes. How else does that translate? Maybe service credits against SLAs. Now, why are these important?
Kim: Because if you don’t get that right, You’re leaking cash left, right and centre.
Daniel: we’re assuming there that there are built in mechanisms for, providing refunds in e in effect. so I, is that something that you’d normally expect to see in a contract, like per, per se?
Kim: Yeah. I mean, if I broke it down to maybe what are the main topics in a contract that you would have to look at more, more, you know, looking at it more wholly, if you like, then for that exact example, you’re looking at things like your termination clauses, right? So you’ve got to manage service. And you’re, you think you’ve got a three year term or a one year term, fixed one year or three year term.
Kim: Let’s say you’re working off customer terms and conditions, they’re not your own paperwork, for example. Are you looking for language that might be sneaked into that contract that says that actually that the customer has 30 days to terminate that contract. Now, if they do, are you understanding what that means?
Kim: Termination of convenience, for example, is a common phrase used in a contract. Do you understand what that means for convenience? It sounds obvious, but a lot of people miss it. they think, oh, it, there’s got to be a reason. No, that’s the point. Convenience. There’s no reason for it. You know, and can that come in a different guise to you?
Kim: You know, when you look at the backdrop of NCE, CSP, right? What does that do as a knock on effect if you’ve got that right in your contract? Big topic I know to discuss. That’s one example.
Adam: so just on those two points, should the starting point therefore be, first of all, always have your own contract, not use the client’s contract, number one, and number two, always start off with no penalties for missed SLAs. now, so in which case you are then putting it upon the customer to obviously come up with something if they even notice it.
Adam: So isn’t that your kind of default position, especially if you’re not in a, you know, large. Large business, you know, targeting highly sophisticated, larger businesses.
Kim: absolutely. So, first protocol is always try to use your template. But firstly, before you even use your template, make sure you’ve got a good template. Make sure you can rely on your template. There’s so many people that have ripped templates from other people and buying it from companies that are not, you know, legal, you know, related or have the technical skill set or understanding
Adam: suggesting MSPs might copy somebody else’s template?
Kim: never. But just in case they do, then please don’t, you know, spend that money, invest that money in getting your templates done once and for all, right? Yes, there’ll be legislation updates, but I won’t labour the point, right? So yes, Try to use your templates if you can because you know what your templates say.
Kim: You know it protects you and then you’re just looking at whatever reviews come back from the customer. you raise a really interesting point Adam about the SLAs and not having the penalties and you raise an even more interesting point saying that, you know, you don’t want your customer to raise those penalties against you.
Kim: Now, if you have customer terms conditions, there’s definitely going to be service credits in there from the customer because they’re going to want service credits from you. If they’re working off your paperwork, you’re already putting your best position forward. Now, what could be the best position here? If your failure against what, if you are failing against an SLA. Yes, people tend to go for service credits, but can you think of a different way? Can you make it? Now this is going to sound at first listen as though I’m crazy saying this, but terminate On the event of X amount of SLA failures in a certain amount of time.
Kim: Now, why do I suggest that? Because you’re going to put stuff that, you know, you’re never going to hit. Right. And what that does, it gives the comfort to the customer to say, well, you can walk from this contract if we hit the, if we hit it that many times in that sort of many months, and that gives you that flexibility of not putting cash on the table.
Kim: Which could be very real, but actually giving the customer that satisfaction that they can walk from it. Does that kind of make sense?
Adam: Yeah, no, 100 percent it does. and I guess to a large extent this does come down to the, the level of knowledge and the level of sophistication that the end client has.and probably sub 100 user businesses, sub 50, certainly on, probably in that territory, or at least most of them. so I think there’s an interesting dynamic there between the SMEs and the mid tier.
Adam: The mid tier providers, would you agree with that, Dan? There’s definitely a kind of, you know, threshold there. and I think for those, you know, if your target market are those smaller, small, smaller, 100 seat organizations, you know, I would always, I guess, suggest going in with some level of SLA. clause, but I personally would always try to refrain from any kind of, financial or penalties in general. And I guess the way I’d use it is I’d use it as a guideline around, what’s acceptable in terms of a, a minimum standard, you know, we’ll always exceed that standard, but, you know, this is the, bottom end of that.
Daniel: expectation. So it sort of opens up a discussion, but actually, you know what, again, at that SME level, if you’re getting the contract out, maybe it’s too, the relationships deteriorated too far anyway, that, that’s like a sort of another aspect of this, but perhaps at that kind of more relationship driven level, you know, so yeah, it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting area.I think the, the thing that, that strikes me probably, absolutely. I see there’s a difference between larger or more mature and sophisticated buyers than less mature, less sophisticated buyers. and that typically is the smaller size, organizations. I’m not really seeing credit service credits being a key topic.
Daniel: I’m almost seeing probably, well, just because it’s topical today. I’ve been, helping, an MSP through a, client termination. and in, in the case of this client termination, we tried everything we could to, to avoid termination, but it’s reached that point and, and the client is determined to leave.
Daniel: in this case, the MSP has a three month, notice period. the client wishes to terminate and stop service immediately. And, in their contract, it doesn’t say. Probably it should. The, the point of termination, the handover for the handover to begin, payment needs to be made for that final, amount.
Daniel: but of course the contract’s been written on the basis that it would be, just a natural three months of service and then, And then a handover at the end. so you’ve already had the money because it’s normally at the start of the month. But in this case, the client is pushing back saying, well, we, we don’t see anywhere that it says this has to be paid in advance for the handover to start.
Daniel: and of course the pushback there as well. Fine, we’ll, we just won’t do the handover for three months. If that’s what, if that’s what you really want. but, what’s your view on that? On, on that, Kim.
Kim: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? From what, I’m not quite clear on this particular issue, what’s happened here. You’re saying that they have terminated with the supplier you’re working with, or they are transitioning to the supplier you’re working with. Which one is it?
Daniel: Yeah. Terminating and moving away from
Kim: one you’re working with. Yeah, so often what we say in that respect is there should be some exit transition clauses, right, that enables an understanding of what happens at the point of exit because this happens all the time and then you’re left with nothing is in the contract, no one is speaking about what happens at that termination event and I think those exit transition clauses are really critical because they have.
Kim: An understanding of the fees need to be paid for that. It’s an out of scope activity, right? And the timeline for it. So you’re not under pressure to deliver that piece of work just because they’re terminating from that position. So you’ve got, again, this is another example of why contracts are so vital when you’re looking at these actual real events that happen on an everyday basis, whether it’s SLAs, to your point, Adam.
Kim: They can happen by the way, just really quickly touch upon that point because you sort of were talking about it and I wanted to just wrap up that little point, which is if you have SLAs without service credits and without recourse of what happens when you fail an SLA, you are effectively in breach of contract, right?
Kim: So what happens is if you fail an SLA, And you’ve got no recourse, nothing that actually remedies that per se in the contract. You’re effectively breaching your contract because you’ll have somewhere that says you’ll do everything to your reasonable endeavours and you will comply with the terms.
Kim: You don’t want that to happen. You don’t want a breach of contract event without you defining what happens at that point. So what I’m trying to say is you need to put control into the contract as to what happens when and if these things happen. So you’re not going to a breach event. Does that kind of make
Adam: It does. And what are the magic words then for that, which really limits my risk.
Kim: Yeah, you talk about the recourse. So you talk about if we fail to provide X amount by X amount of months, then you have the right to terminate. If we don’t, we will endeavour to fix and remedy within a suitable time. You make it generic, but you’re saying you’re going to do something. If you don’t say anything at all, you’ve effectively said that’s my P1, P2, P3, and I haven’t complied, therefore I’ve breached.
Adam: and of course, I also put in that clause that you give me time to remedy as well, once you’ve raised it.
Kim: Yeah, using reasonable endeavours. Don’t even give a timeline. Just using reasonable endeavours. You know, those key magic words. Don’t ever say best
Adam: no, never say best. I learned that early on.
Kim: never say best reasonable, commercially reasonable and where your go to’s are for that. so I hope that sort of answers a bit of your question, Daniel, about, you know, the exit transition and yours, Adam, about the SLAs and kind of mitigating as much of that in a contract too.
Daniel: absolutely. And, not only, we will, in this case, we were talking about the notice period and when payment should be made, because of course, once you. Start to provide the handover. You’ve lost all power in that relationship, and therefore, you may then not get the final payment. And what can you do about it at that point?
Daniel: not that I’m advocating holding a client to ransom by not releasing things, but you know, there’s got to be some tension to help, everybody. behave accordingly at the end of a, at the end of a relationship. but one thing you picked up or I picked up there very subtly, and probably a good clause for our listeners to be thinking about is having a, an off boarding, charge.
Daniel: whether that, I think it said it’s out of scope and therefore it would be, so you’d have the notice. Plus there’d be a charge for doing the handover as well.
Kim: Exactly. That exit transition clause is vital when you are looking at terminating, because like I said, you’re going to have loads of problems at that point, and if your contract stops there, You’ve got no way of dealing with that. your statement of work is probably not going to say anything about exit either.
Kim: No one’s going to really think about that because you’re all hoping for the best, right? You’re on an everlasting relationship, but you’ve got to think about it. That’s why contracts are so vital. It’s not about, I know everyone thinks it’s a headache. They’re long winded. I know I get it, but please remember that they are there because these things happen and then no one knows how to deal with them when they happen because it’s not written down.
Kim: Do it in a way that you can manage, but have them have the have those clauses in
Adam: and what about the reverse? So where the client isn’t, living to their obligations in particular, not paying? So what are some of the more elegant ways of approaching that where you’re getting that right balance between not being too heavy handed, but also being forceful. so giving the client the opportunity of maintaining that relationship, especially if it’s a long term relationship.
Adam: but at the same time, not increasing your risk unnecessarily. So is there some sort of more elegant ways of managing that?
Kim: So in terms of contracts, I mean you can certainly set out the parameters of if they fail to deliver on time You’ve got the right to either terminate or suspend the services, right? Because you can do that the only time you can’t do it Which I think is really interesting for anyone listening on this call, and it’s really important for an MSP, is when the, your customer is going into an insolvency situation, then you’re stuffed.
Kim: You really are, because the Insolvency Act defines an MSP as an essential
Adam: can I cease their services completely?
Kim: No,
Adam: No, if they’re not going into insolvency.
Kim: If they’re not going into insolvency, yes, you
Adam: So I can turn off their connectivity
Kim: You can terminate or suspend it within a certain amount of notice that you have to give. You have to be reasonable.
Kim: We have, we operate under the laws of UCTA, Unfair Contract Terms Act, okay? And the whole premise of that is you have to be reasonable and fair. If you give enough advance warning that they haven’t paid and you have to therefore suspend or do the next action, and you have paid. Giving them enough notice, not saying you’ve done one shot email, you’ve done everything you can to put that in front of them and they’ve ignored it, then you have the right to be reasonable and fair according to the contract terms, follow them, and then you can do that.
Kim: But not when you’re in the position where you know that they are insolvent. So,
Adam: reasonable and fair might be they’re 60 days behind. You’ve sent them 10, 10 emails. You’ve had three phone conversations. you’ve told them what’s going to happen, when it’s going to happen at the exact time. They’ve had a week to respond to that. You followed up again to make sure they understand, et cetera, et cetera.
Adam: That would be reasonable. Is
Kim: Exactly. And it is reasonable as well, in line with your business practice and the industry as well. And that exactly follows the right order of things. So giving them time to pay, putting an interest if you need to, on top of that, to show them that you’re serious about it. They’re still ignoring you. You give them a first warning.
Kim: Okay. Then the next amount of time after that, you give them another bit of warning. And then, you know, you can say to them, according to contract clause, blah, blah, blah, I’m going to suspend your services. Well,
Daniel: And you mentioned there though about you can’t do it if they’re going into insolvency and that would be. and administrators appointed at that point. and because you’re a central service, therefore, you’re going to have some sort of priority in terms of receiving money from the,
Kim: there’s going to be a long list of creditors. So who knows? You have to apply. There’s certain procedures. I won’t go into them in the course. They’re quite complex, but there are certain procedures you have to follow at that point. And you should be talking to a lawyer at that point because they are quite complex.
Kim: But essentially, your script, because, you know, you’ve got to pay that license fee on their behalf. Right. And if you’ve got a big organization you’re supporting, that is, you know, That’s quite a bill that you’ve got to support without necessarily knowing if you’ll ever get that money back or at best getting the money back many months later, if not maybe years later.
Kim: So how I tell my customers, what I tell my customers at that point of view is before you get to that, what are you doing internally? What are your, what are you telling your accounts team to do and how are they doing the credit control on that? If they’re failing to pay on time consecutively, Why are there not red flags being raised at that point?
Kim: And then a conversation with the client to go, listen, too many times you’ve missed payment. We need advanced payment now. It’s, we can’t continue like that. What are you doing entirely about? It’s not just contracts. Think about using the contracts as your weapon, but what’s the background? Where’s this, where’s the armour?
Daniel: Yeah, I,I was unaware of this, expectation that you have to continue to provide the service. and, and that just makes it even more important as you say that you’ve got payment terms, absolutely in your favour and, and given any. Any level of credit come comes with risk, especially if you get dragged into providing extended credit for,
Adam: that the case? If you’ve got, if you’ve got a clause in your actual contract that stipulates The contract ends once you become insolvent or, you know, are moved into administration,
Kim: So you can terminate on an insolvency basis. Yes, you can terminate the contract, but under this act, you cannot terminate the services. So it doesn’t matter. Your
Adam: but then there’s no, but then there’s no contract in place to say what the services should be.
Kim: there’s, there is a contract in place, but it’s the way, it’s the, at that point you’re under a different act, the insolvency act, which obligates you to continue on that service, no matter what your contract, it, prevails over your contract.
Kim: So that’s the important takeaway. Your contract still works and operates because you still have other terms in your contract, but you’ve got to keep providing that service. And I, we’ve had customers who unfortunately have been stung by that over the last few years, because it’s a lot more prevalent now.
Daniel: and that alone, is, is a great reason to, to defend, not only tight contract terms, but also, disciplined, credit management. did you know that if you go insolvent, I have to continue to provide this? And therefore. I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be doing that.
Daniel: So, and you probably don’t want to be doing that either. So.
Kim: And the amount of MSPs I speak to who have no idea about this, have no idea. They sort of understand with NCE, they’re like, Oh, there’s a liability there. I’ve got to keep, you know, what if they don’t pay, but they just don’t realize the extent to which their obligations go
Adam: Can you repeat this again? And I’ll make sure it’s in the show notes as well. What’s the actual, legal framework called.
Kim: It’s the Insolvency Act. I can’t remember the year off the top of
Adam: Okay. But we’ll get a link. We’ll get a link in the show
Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. good stuff. So, so revenue leakage, having to provide services that you may not be able to collect payment for. that’s a great revenue leakage as is losing, notice period or indeed revenue for doing an offboarding. we’ve talked about service credits and, and of course, Our, our position of, well, we don’t do any, we don’t have any remedy isn’t a defensible position.
Daniel: So that’s really interesting. so, what, what other areas are there that we should be thinking about around revenue, revenue, protection from a
Kim: Yeah. I think rebates, looking at, you know, if you’re TPOR or PAL, if you’re doing any kind of incentives or rebates, making sure that language is in your contract. So claiming partner record, digital partner record, all that kind of stuff for the Microsoft partners, you know, who are, you know, reselling the NCCSP and getting, obviously, incentives for that.
Kim: Make sure that’s in your contract that you are able to claim for those things. that’s really important. If you don’t have authority to claim for those things, then you’re just going in and claiming it without the customer consent. Now, how much is that worth to MSPs on a yearly basis? Some MSPs I work with, that’s about a million pounds revenue every single year.
Kim: Things like GDAP, right? Have you got rights in your contract to have GDAP? Can you go in and actually access their admin accounts? Have you got rights to that? Is that a contractual right? If not, do you want them to go up and come after you going, I didn’t give you an actual contractual written right to do that and manage my account.
Kim: You know, these types of things. I don’t know if any of your particular. Listeners do proof of execution work, Microsoft funded work. But if they do, this is a massive leak that I’ve seen time and time again. We actually have specific clauses in it, in our contracts, because I see it all the time, which is they get Microsoft to fund their work for the customer and the, they won’t pay Microsoft, won’t pay the MSP until the customer signed off on an acceptance criteria, a certificate.
Kim: Now that customer can sit on their hands for months if they wanted to. There’s no skin off their nose. So who is suffering the loss of that? But the supplier, the MSP. So obligate your customer, because you’ll have the direct contract with the customer, not with Microsoft. Obligate your customer to sign off in seven days.
Kim: Otherwise they foot the bill. They pay you up front. You know, things like that, right? That’s stuff that happens all the time.
Daniel: That puts me in mind actually of, a commercial gap that, that I know has stung a few people in the past and generally doesn’t, which is, where, the MSP is selling a typ, typically a product rather than a, a service. and it’s been financed via releasing partner.so, the typical order being, MSP, buys products, delivers it, customer signs, a certificate of acceptance Leasing company then, accepts and pays out, the invoice from the MSP, but there’s obviously that period where, they’ve, they bought it from their supplier.
Daniel: the customer has not signed the certificate of acceptance and, and the MSP is in, in, in a total hole potentially. so, is that, is that part of the products and services supply terms and conditions, or should there be something explicit for leasing situations?
Kim: it’s not part of it because, you know, it’s not necessarily always MSPs do have that arrangement, but certainly there is generic wording in the contracts to support that position, but it’s generically said it’s not necessarily leasing. It’s just any third party services that require upfront payment or any kind of payment from, The customer that they have to make sure that they move fast enough basically to provide that or sign off on it.
Kim: But you know, to your point, these are things that how often do MSPs think about as that thing that gets leaked in the business and don’t put it in their contracts or get it written into their contracts. These are very good points. And this is how a contract can really. generate revenue. So I think rebates, closing that gap, you know, all of the different particularities of how you guys work in the marketplace needs to be reflected in good quality terms, conditions.
Daniel: And ultimately then backed up by a good credit management and assessment of risk. if you are giving credit,
Kim: Yeah, absolutely. you need the processes behind it too, to support it. but at least have something there that, you know, you can rely on. And if things happen, then you can fall back on something. That’s pretty solid.
Daniel: I’m sure not all of our listeners will be, defending millions of pounds of, rebates, maybe thousands and tens of thousands,
Kim: Maybe not today,
Daniel: would be super, but, yeah, this is good aspirational, positioning though. So, and so, some of these points we’ve talked about are, yes, they’re revenue defending, or, but also risk avoidance as well.
Daniel: and I guess all of this just comes down to thinking more in a more integrated way about your contracts in terms of how they’re constructed, when they’re deployed, what would happen if there is a, An issue that needs to be managed and who would do that? and so potentially is this where we get into a shameless plug for cloud contracts?
Daniel: 365 maybe here, Kim.
Kim: well, it does. It does a lot of the contract management. Yes. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for giving me that opportunity. But obviously I’m not here for that. But yeah, the cloud contract 365 is what I’ve built. It’s a SAS platform. It’s, you know, you help you go do. To yourself, do it yourself, you know, you go to the platform, you can create those contracts that I spoke about that have all of those protections already built in.
Kim: It takes about a minute to create a master services agreement. for example, it’s got managed services, professional services, all the rest of it, all the way through to it’s got integrated signatures in there. So you can go from. creating to signing and storing instantly with automatic renewal reminders.
Kim: Great for those renewals coming up. It just manages it for you in terms of telling you when they’re coming up, but it has a contract reviewer tool and AI machine learning that’s actually built in house it’s all legal knowledge based from our own experience in this market only. So it, it basically reviews contracts like a lawyer does.
Kim: You put it through. If there’s been any red line against your templates or any customer feedback, any customer terms and conditions, you put it through and it instantly tells you where the legal risk is, how to push back. It rags it for you so you know what’s critical, what’s medium, what’s low risk. And it gives you an immediate score out of 100 of how risky that contract is to accept as it is at that point.
Kim: So it’s a really good sort of visual aid, but also some educational tools there as to know where those risks actually lie in the document. It will pick things up like timers of the essence, if you see that in the contract and never accept it. you know, it will pick that up for you and say don’t accept it, this is what it means and this is what you should do to push back.
Kim: It will look at limitation of liability, termination for convenience, it will show you where those are in the contract. So that’s really helpful and it starts at, I think over 100 a month. So it’s very manageable for people to kind of use this on an everyday basis.
Daniel: Brilliant. great, great innovation in terms of, providing that, that, that facility perhaps without some of the, associated, price premium that, that often comes with, with that kind of service. And of course, the reason when smaller and younger MSPs do bootstrap and do just grab someone else’s T’s and C’s, and, you know, and if you are going to do that listeners, just remember to find and replace the company name of the original, cause I have seen that before
Kim: Yeah,
Daniel: on websites as a
Kim: yeah, it happens all the time but you don’t need to do it with the tool because it has an API into Companies House. You just type, start typing the name of the company and it does it all for you. It’s super simple, and like I said, yeah, a contract template in MSA would normally cost four and a half grand to get built by a law firm.
Kim: It’s 100 a month for 12 months. It’s a no brainer really.
Daniel: ab, absolutely. And, and 1, 1, 1 final thought. and I don’t know whether this is something that, is already part of your service or something that you perhaps could, could add in the future, but, almost like a, an implementation. workshop in terms of, so now we’re using these contracts and if you’re in the service team, this is what you need to know about what the contracts say or don’t say.
Daniel: And if you’re in, a new business or an account management role, this is what you should be aware of, almost like a sort of user guide for awareness.
Kim: Yeah, we have a knowledge center, which has a lot of that. and we do customize training sessions for people as well. So if they need me to sort of all the teams, just go in front of all their sales team and tell them exactly why these are important, how they can manage it and how effectively to use a tool in their day to day job, as well as managing that, the sort of legal.
Kim: side of things. That’s what we do. And with great success, because once you do it, it’s in the team, in their knowledge, and they pass it down. So you sort of get a more sophisticated, outcome.
Daniel: Brilliant. Sounds, sounds very good. And, yeah. once again, Kim, really appreciate your time sharing, sharing your knowledge and, and wisdom with us and our audience. I think we’re probably about time. any final thoughts from you, Adam?
Adam: I just got tons more questions, but we haven’t got any time. So we’re going to have Kim back. I think, the big limit of liability is brewing. There’s definitely a whole lot of stuff around
Kim: That is a big discussion.
Adam: I want to go through that, but we’ll save our listeners for today and we’ll have you back another time.
Kim: Fantastic. Thank you for having me, Beau. Thank you.
Adam: Thank you.
Daniel: Thank you.