In this episode of “It’s a Numbers Game” host Adam and co-host Dan are joined by Michelle Coombs from the Tech Leader Network to discuss operational effectiveness and efficiency in managed service providers (MSPs). The conversation covers key strategies for improving MSP performance, including prioritising customer satisfaction, ensuring accountability in service delivery, and setting clear objectives. Michelle shares her extensive experience across various industries, providing practical advice on how MSPs can enhance their operations to become more efficient, profitable, and maintain stronger customer relationships. The episode also touches on the importance of holding regular reviews, logging time, and the balance of internal and outsourced service delivery models.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:23 Operational Effectiveness and Efficiency
02:03 Customer First Approach
04:18 Balancing Customer Needs and MSP Objectives
07:46 Escalation Processes and Red Flag Meetings
12:55 Accountability and Job Descriptions
18:51 Hiring and Team Dynamics
23:09 Cascading Objectives and Measuring Success
29:12 Conclusion and Contact Information
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Michelle Coombs on LinkedIn by clicking here –https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-coombs/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript
Adam: Hello, everyone, and, welcome to Its a numbers game. And, today we’re joined by Michelle Coombs from the Tech Leader Network. Good afternoon, Michelle.
Michelle: hello.
Adam: How are you?
Michelle: Obviously, I’m wonderful Adam. I always am.
Adam: Wonderful. and raring to go. that’s great. Dan and how you doing?
Daniel: Very good, thank you.
Adam: Excellent. So, so we’re going to talk about all around operational effectiveness and efficiency today. and it’s going to be really interesting to, dig into Michelle’s experience. I think there’s quite a bit of experience there, isn’t there, across different industries and indeed the MSP industry.
Adam: and so, yes, I, we’re going to look to sort of dig into what makes, or what can make, MSPs, operate more efficiently, might make more profitable, provide sticky relationships with their customers, deliver higher value services, and presumably, have happier and more engaged employees as well.
Adam: So,this is obviously core And should be right up there, for a lot of MSPs out there. So, so perhaps Michelle, we could just kick things off and, perhaps you could just, start with, one of the sort of low hanging fruit or perhaps one of the top priorities that, that all MSPs serious MSPs out there should be looking at, in terms of how they can go about.
Adam: making their operational operation more excellent.
Michelle: for me, the very first thing would be to take accountability and ownership of the through the leadership of their service delivery. so often they’ll talk about people, process, technology, and then they’ll forget about holding people to account and setting that direction. and they also forget about the customer at the end of the day as well.
Michelle: they’ll focus on what they need to do, but they forget about making sure that the customer’s happy, with the services being delivered.
Adam: So is that two or is that one?
Michelle: It’s kind of two. It’s kind of two. I can’t make my mind up whether it’s leadership or customer that’s the most important. I guess without customer, you needn’t bother having an MSP, right?
Michelle: At the end of the day. So let’s go with customer being the most important.
Adam: So kind of customer first, kind of.
Michelle: Absolutely.
Adam: Yeah. So tell us more about customer first. What are the good MSPs doing out there?
Michelle: they are making sure that they get that feedback from their customers. and then acting on it. I mean, it’s all great. Well, it’s all well and great when they get all What’s going well, what can we do better? And the make notes in their service delivery meetings or the QBRs, TBRs, whatever you want to call them.
Michelle: and they do the feedback satisfaction surveys, but then they do nothing with it. And, they just sit on it and that is so disappointing to see, that they’ve got all this quality information from their customers about how they can improve, how they can retain them longer and all of that good stuff.
Michelle: But they just do nothing. Thank you.
Adam: and, examples of doing something would be.
Michelle: So instead of, they could look for root cause. So for example, it could have been the way that tickets have been handled by the service desk over a period of a month. It could be that you’ve got people with training issues, or that they’re not following the process, or anything along those lines. But without doing that deep dive and that root cause analysis into what those issues are, then you’re not going to know a way of fixing them.
Adam: Yes, indeed. for us, there was always, I guess the, the value set of, or at least from a client perspective of one of appearing to listen and appearing to learn and appearing to improve. So, so what is it we can do to get even better? And sometimes they’ve come up with some ideas and suggestions and sometimes they wouldn’t.
Adam: But I guess the thinking that you, it’s an ongoing, it’s an ongoing process. what can we do to improve what we do for you, Mr. Client? And then of course, doing something about that rather than just, you know, listening, writing it down and doing nothing. Actually coming back maybe the next quarter at the next QBR or whatever and saying, actually, do you know what we’ve taken on some of your thoughts?
Adam: We’re not quite there with this and this, but maybe we are, you know, here and here, those sorts of things, I guess.
Michelle: Absolutely. And you can take it and feed those, points. If you find that you’ve got multiple instances across multiple customers, you would roll that up into like your continual service improvement log and things like that as well. And then you would focus on it as a business as a whole.
Adam: And how do you go about managing that balance between the customer’s always first and actually sometimes the customer’s not always first or not always right anyway. And just because the customer wants something or likes something or would prefer something, it’s not the right solution for the MSP. From a, an overall service provision and, you know, business growth perspective, I suppose.
Adam: So what are your kind of thoughts around managing that? Because at least in my experience, if you’re not careful, it can become too far the other way almost. And you just say yes to everything. And actually you need to say no sometimes.
Michelle: Yeah. and that’s the key thing is knowing when to say no, when it doesn’t align. With the objectives of the MSP, it’s being able to communicate that clearly to the customer and set those expectations. and of course you set your expectations at the beginning of the contract. And then if they go off on a tangent every now and then, because you’ve over delivered and they’ve started to expect that permanently, then sometimes you do have to reset those expectations.
Michelle: Midway, or regularly, even if it’s regular though, I’d be saying, what are they the right customer for the msp? So sometimes it’s a case of is this the right relationship or are they better served elsewhere?
Adam: And that’s another whole conversation, isn’t it? That,that, that whole piece. I certainly, I don’t think. We should underestimate the amount of over communication that is required to keep aligned with, you know, your service delivery. So you don’t, you don’t go too far that one way.
Adam: but you do raise an, you do raise an interesting point about, you know, if they don’t seem to get you, well, at what point do you, you know, to decide there’s a difficult conversation to have.
Adam: Dan, any thoughts around this?
Daniel: I’ve got a couple actually. the first,being by trade, a sales person, generally I start with the, the customer and what expectations have been set. and I have in my mind the whole premise of, a achieving a mature service delivery model probably comes with size and with scale.
Daniel: and the process you’ve just described will. There’ll be different people involved at different stages of the development of the MSP. So when the businesses is young, probably the person selling it is also the person managing the delivery. And then over time they gradually delegate out parts of that role.
Daniel: sensibly, you might say they delegate service delivery first and retain account management and new business. And then. Potentially, they then delegate account management and they’re left just with new business, and,to do that, as they start to the cell, the single cell organism subdivides, that’s when you need extra communication between those different roles, whereas when it’s one person making the decision, they get the feedback and they take action immediately.
Daniel: naturally. then when they’re a larger organization and those roles are mature embedded in, they’ve already created the processes that sounds to me the danger time is in that growth phase where you’re not a single cell organism, but you’re also not a scale mature business. is that where most of
Michelle: your experience come
Michelle: yeah, because the, the bit that’s missing there is that whole escalation process, whether it’s, a tech, not the technical escalation, like tier one to tier two to tier three kind of engineer level, but more so that whole escalation about something not being handled the right way, whether that’s on the service side or whether it’s on a project side or whether it’s on an account management side.
Michelle: and also those kinds of conversations as well, where. Or actually getting some kind of process embedded in one for the escalation, but two for an internal like red flag customer meeting. So like once a week, for example, have we got any customers with the red flag? What do we need to know? And how can we handle these before they become an issue?
Michelle: and I think those are key, particularly when it’s, those midsize smaller and more midsize MSPs where they need to understand what’s going on to handle it better.
Adam: I was just going to say actually sort of related to this, Michelle, do you have any, best practice or recommendations for how MSPs should go around,or, you know, the process that they could have in place to help them,detect when, that client becomes an Amber client for the sake of, I, we used to call them Amber clients, you know, they need a bit of extra love.
Adam: we need to really monitor that SLA. We need to get an account manager over there ASAP. whatever it may be, until we decide they’re no longer amber and they’re green again. but do you kind of have any kind of, as I say, sort of thoughts around,how you perhaps measure that,or a process around it in general?
Michelle: So for me, I’d be measuring things like those end of ticket feedback scores. weekly I’d be monitoring those SLA ticket volumes, because if they’re being particularly noisy that week, what’s going on and what can we do better? There, timings response and restoration, because I’m very keen on restore SLA being more important than the response, because as a business, you want your people working, right?
Michelle: That you don’t want them being responded to for. Days on end you want to work it so having those key stats in place, which would be the aligned to your SLA and your contractual obligations, having those in place and then just monitoring on a weekly basis and where you are not hitting your targeted levels, have a conversation.
Daniel: these are, of course,some of those measures are going to be shared with the client directly. And some of them are only going to be shared internally as well. for example, I wouldn’t have any,restorative SLAs with my, my, my client, how do I know what the problem is going to be, unless I’ve got a very narrow,area of responsibility.
Daniel: so is that normal, for MSPs to have that restorative SLA published externally?
Michelle: share, I would share theirs for that customer. So if I’ve got customer A, I’d share Their SLA results. So whether a hit response, whether I hit restore in that month, and then I would have things like a hundred percent of P ones would be hit each month. If it wasn’t to say it was 95%, then I’d be explaining why it was 95 percent and what I’m going to be doing the next month to make that even better.
Michelle: P2s I’d go for like a 95 percent target, P3s I’d probably say 90 and a P4 85%. But where I was below those, I would absolutely share it because it looks like I’m being proactive and looking for ways to improve that service to deliver that to that client. I wouldn’t share customer B, customer C, customer D, but I would share their results.
Michelle: Absolutely.
Daniel: I mean, actually, what is the target for, for resolving a, an issue though? Are you saying that’s normally contracted, baked into the client agreement, will fix issues within, Eight hours, 48 hours, 72 hours.
Michelle: Ah, now I see where you’re coming from because if it’s a smaller MSP, if you’ve only got like four or five people in there and you know that you could have one person on annual leave, one person is called in sick and a third person is out on a customer site. How can you guarantee that you can’t when you’re small, you have to have the right resources in place to be able to deliver to that model.
Michelle: Okay.
Michelle: Indeed. and I’d even say quite dangerous, even if you’re large, because, ultimately What, how much of the, how much of that problem is within your control? You’re dealing with different hardware suppliers, different vendors, different software, all sorts. So, argue with that one, Adam, because you’ve got things like hold states and, you’d have underpinning contracts with your suppliers to be able to deliver that service on your behalf. And if you don’t put it in the contract. It would be awaiting a third party and that time would be excluded from the ticket.
Adam: guess that depends on your market and who you’re selling to and the extent to which they’re savvy to this area and they’re even understand it as a thing. I would, I guess my experience mostly was that, we never, I, in fact, I can’t even remember having a conversation where someone said, hang on a second, you don’t have an SLA for recovery here.
Adam: so, but I can certainly understand how that, how you, how that features in, in larger deals. so, so customer first then,as, as probably somewhere near the top in terms of,what, what ops directors need to be thinking about here. What would be, well, you mentioned accountability.
Adam: would that be your number two?
Michelle: Yes. So once they’ve aligned what they’re looking to achieve, then they’ve got to hold people to account, whether that is for delivering those service metrics. So that will be cascaded all the way down to the engineers on the desk, or whether it is to the PMs to implement projects on time on budget, whether it’s about resourcing and making sure that you’ve got cover and you’ve got people that are like.
Michelle: Utilized and the capacity and all that kind of good stuff that goes on. So whatever it is, it’s about that accountability for making sure stuff is implemented as well.
Adam: So, so tell me how you go about, you know, improving accountability. Cause that again is a whole, it’s a whole huge thing, right?
Michelle: Yeah, where do you want to start on that one? Because it
Adam: Well, whatever you want to
Michelle: huge thing. Where would I start with accountability? Is, ah, here’s a gap that I find, particularly with those smaller MSPs, where there’s like five to ten people. It’s the missing job descriptions, the missing objectives, and things like that.
Michelle: So without those, you can’t hold anybody to account because they don’t know what they’re going to be held to account for. So I would suggest that would be a very good starting place.
Adam: absolutely. and look in the mirror
Michelle: Yeah, at the minute it’s everything. Yeah.
Adam: look in the mirror, kind of accountability starts with you, doesn’t it? And, if you can’t even be on time or deliver, with what you’ve promised, you know, they’re going to see that, aren’t they? that was always a core thing for me.
Adam: and, we had to come down like a ton of bricks on leaders in the business who didn’t exhibit. Any of those core accountability behaviours, because how do you expect your team to behave if you can’t even do that?
Michelle: Even for those one man bands out there, those nimble MSPs as we call them, not one man bands, it sounds terrible. So the nimble MSPs where there’s like one or two people. There is nothing to stop those owners getting accountability from somebody they know out of a peer group, for example, and working together with those so that they’ve got somebody to hold them to account.
Adam: yeah, that’s really interesting actually. or, or if there are two men and they’ve, you know, they’ve got their first hire say, being completely open and honest and transparent and saying, actually we’re a team, you know, I expect you to deliver this, but actually. you know, I need to be delivering that and do you know what, you, even though you’re my hire and my employee, you know, I am accountable, for delivering this for you.
Adam: And you know what, if I don’t, you can call me out on it.
Michelle: Yeah. and so that, that’s really interesting. So when you’re hiring for those kinds of roles, I think the lesson there is that they don’t look for a yes person. So, you know, those that just say yes, because they think that’s what you want to hear. You need to find those people that can appropriately challenge you.
Daniel: Not that they’re going to be disruptive or anything. I could see Dan’s face and I could just say, yeah,we should let our listeners know that we have the video on while we’re recording. so, we, we have this level of communication,non nonverbal. you raised a really interesting point though, at the beginning that, you know, you should have a job description, and presumably some KPIs for your role and,and.
Daniel: those, those numbers should be reported, monitored and, and discussed, between, members of team and line manager. So is there, is discipline like a key tenant of this in terms of, you know, we, we are to have a one to one every week. and if you,if I’ve not had my one to one, I’m going to be holding a user account.
Daniel: line manager,why have we not had the one to one? Why are we not looking at my performance? and, and so is that perhaps one of the things that the developing MSP should really think about from the beginning?
Michelle: Absolutely having that time in the calendar. and it’s one of those things it’s because it’s when you’re delivering, when it’s small, how do you make that time? That’s the key thing. And is it a week? Is it one hour a week, one hour a month, one hour, a quarter, and it’s very easy to push it out.
Michelle: So it’s got to be. in the calendar, I’d suggest absolutely make sure it’s in the calendar to have those, sessions. But it’s not, there’s two people in that conversation, Dan, as you’re saying. So if it’s not there, challenge and ask. And that’s the same for any size of organization, because you’ve got to be responsible for your own career path, your own learning, your own development.
Michelle: It’s not the responsibility of a line manager. You’ve got to take some Ownership of yourself, right? So absolutely doesn’t matter what size organization you are. If you’re not getting the support you need, then ask for it.
Adam: and that of course is a great culture to build where you’ve got.a level of individual leadership, so you might be the apprentice, but actually, do you know what, you’re a key part of our business. And,you know, for you to do well and be successful, you have a one to one with your team leader for, you know, half an hour a week.
Adam: if that doesn’t happen, you know, because he’s too busy or he keeps cancelling or something else, then we’ve got a problem and you, and, you know, and he has a responsibility for you. so, so it’s two way it’s service leadership. it’s treat treating people as, as individuals, as, you know, and building that overall kind of accountability structure and individual leadership structure within the business.
Adam: And I think that’s, Yeah, at least to some extent, that’s what experience has shown me seems to make a difference. and yeah, sort of accountability has to sort of be built within the core of the culture of the business, really.
Michelle: And you can kind of gauge some of it when you are interviewing as well. So I think as well, we do a lot of tech assessment, particularly in the service delivery side, like what are the skills on Windows, Azure, AWS, firewalls, all that stuff. But how much do we actually do about making sure they are the right person fit?
Michelle: and because we’re tech people, we’re generally not people, we don’t always dig into those personality traits the best that we can. I don’t think we always understand them, so developing ourselves to understand those personality traits and what makes people tick and how we can get the best out of our team is a really good skill for those team leaders and managers as well to pick up.
Adam: Indeed, and, made even harder, of course, because you might only have one candidate rock up, two if you’re lucky.
Michelle: Find a different recruiter I’d say at that point.
Adam: Well, but the reality is, if you know, the reality is, it’s not particularly easy and you’re not getting hundreds of people, you know, quality CVS coming through. and so I, I always found at least that the theory didn’t necessarily match the reality. match the practice. you know, you’d get, you’d read the book around.
Adam: Oh, well, you know, one, you make sure you’ve got all the skills you need, and then you need to make sure you have all the personal characteristics and everything else. But if you have literally two and a half CVS and you know, it’s like, okay, well, how does this work? that’s the challenging side of building any, you know, any business in the UK.
Adam: And clearly there’s better, better, several options around how you might go around, sort of solving that problem. but yeah, 100 percent start with the right person, clearly and really try to dig in to what makes that person. And, you know, do you hire based on values? and train and build the skills later.
Adam: it’s the, it’s that quandary and,
Michelle: bad for me. That’s about that seniority level. So if you’re looking for like your final escalation point in that tier three engineer, then you’ve absolutely got to base it on skillset because you can’t take somebody with really good customer service skills and get them up to tier three to be able to take those tickets straight off the bat.
Michelle: So sometimes you have to drop it. in terms of your personality kind of stuff, those attitudes, but yeah, it’s a good one. And then it’s just making sure to follow the process and getting the objective.
Adam: and there may be ways depending on what those skills are. So they may have a great, core value set, which is great for the business, but then maybe they don’t have the customer services skills, but maybe they can be sheltered from that to some extent, depending on what role they have.
Michelle: It’s about figuring out what you need in the business and how you can do it. And I think as well, early doors with you saying like, if you’ve only got like two CVs through the door, if it’s not the right person, do you take the risk and let that impact your customers? Or do you say, actually, I’m going to outsource for a while, and get somebody else to cover it while I get that right person on board, because it’s going to impact your customers.
Adam: Indeed.
Daniel: Presumably the distributed service delivery model, though, requires even more explicit process and communications because then people aren’t sat next to each other, maybe not even in the same time zone, speaking the same first language.
Michelle: Oh, there you had it with a whole different conversation going on, Dan. Yeah.
Daniel: so building that out so that it’s sufficiently robust, that you’re not reliant solely on an internal, hire,is, well, maybe those businesses that, that do outsource, from an early point, actually, end up with a more robust system. than the one that has lots of internal people and,and has relied on the, the informal glue and working relationships between individuals.
Michelle: Yeah. Probably find as well that they’ve probably got more mature processes in place than those smaller ones that are hiring their first, second, third employee. Those, outsourced places are going to have more matured processes. They’re going to know what they need to do because they’re working at volume.
Adam: Indeed. Indeed. we’ve got time for one more, Michelle.five minutes max. So what would be your number three on the list?
Michelle: Number three. Keeping it numbers related for you, I think Adam and Dan, it would probably, and it in line with what we’ve spoke about today. It’s probably that cascade of objectives and knowing where you want your business to go, where you want it to end, and then cascading those objectives down to individuals.
Michelle: So you’re all going in the same direction and you all know what you’re working on.
Adam: So you have a plan. You’re measuring your numbers on a weekly, monthly basis.you compare it against your plan. Your trajectory is, do you need to, are you on the right course or do you need to change course?
Michelle: exactly.
Adam: and, you know, if you don’t have those numbers, then you just don’t know. Do you,
Michelle: Exactly.
Adam: I always remember years ago, we didn’t even, you know, properly log time, right?
Adam: This cause how could I possibly ask all my engineers to log, log time? They’re not robots, you know? but of course you just can’t build a,a good MSP without doing that. so that became very necessary and, you know, it needed to be a discipline embraced by everybody to do that.
Adam: And that’s just one, one particular, set of numbers, isn’t it? effectively, but it’s vital
Michelle: Yeah. And just thinking on following on from that, Adam is finding those things that are important to you at the time, not just implementing anything and everything all at once, because that will just overwhelm you. So your challenge at that time was specifically time. So implement the time metrics and the measures, and then monitor that for a period of time, work out how you can improve it.
Michelle: And then it’s embedded and then find the next thing you want to improve. Don’t try and do everything all at once. Cause that would just set everybody up for failure.
Adam: a hundred percent and also do your best at trying to communicate why. So they can understand why it’s important. It’s not just for you and your benefit. Actually, they understand now how it helps them as well. So actually, if we don’t know how busy you are, how could we possibly know when we need to hire another engineer,
Michelle: Yeah.
Adam: for example,
Michelle: you over time, Bill.
Adam: or pay your overtime in indeed, or give you a pay rise at the end of the year, you know, what simple things.
Adam: Oh yeah. I kind of get it now. Yeah.
Michelle: And it’s thinking about it from their perspective as well. Like you say, they’re not from yours. So I
Adam: Yeah, no. I mean, obviously Dan and I, with what we do with MSPs is all about, not all about numbers, but there’s a lot of it around numbers, of course. because they don’t lie, generally speaking, as long as you’re getting accurate numbers. and they’re vital for steering, steering the ship, and knowing what to tweak and prioritise.
Adam: and I think, I don’t think I know an MSP out there that isn’t doing this well. You know, they have all the appropriate gauges and reporting in place. and you know, it’s front and center of how they run that business.
Michelle: think the next bit though, is there is often still where, even though they’re running well, there’s always things that can be improved. That’s one of the drivers for any MSP really is that continual improvement. So although they’re running well, what can they do better to take them to that next level?
Adam: Well, and so maybe we’re logging 75 percent of our time today. And our aim is to get to 85%.do we think it’s possible to get to a hundred percent? Perhaps not. So maybe, you know, ultimately we’d like to get to 90, but maybe in a year we’ll get to 85, perhaps, you know, it’s, you’ve got to have some realism in there as well.
Adam: Haven’t you? and work out the, I can’t remember what the saying is now, but perfection is the enemy of
Michelle: Everything. Yeah.
Michelle: I can’t remember. I can’t know what it is. stuff done. If you wait for perfection, it’ll never get done is the phrase I use.
Adam: exactly that. And Dan let’s, you know, the exact quote. thoughts on this one, Dan.
Daniel: well, Mr Nigel Moore esquire says, “done is better than perfect”, which is quite a punchy version of, I think what you’re both saying
Michelle: Yeah, we can’t think of the exact words, Dan. I
Daniel: take away for anyone listening to this, that there isn’t currently, currently doing some of these, I would say, quite foundational, initiatives.
Daniel: so having job descriptions, establishing what the KPIs are of a role, measuring those numbers in a reliable fashion. meeting regularly to discuss, how achievable those numbers are and what the next level of, of ambition should be. this all sounds, pretty basic, but, I, I would imagine that there’s a good number of MSPs out there that aren’t actually achieving this on a continuous basis and therefore striving for that, Next level, that best in class is actually going to be very difficult until you are doing some of these, and doing them regularly.
Adam: and, it forms part of the, appraisal and review process. Right. you know, Mr. Boss, I’d like a pay rise, please, this year. Well, well, I’ve, we’ve looked at all of your reviews and you just haven’t met the targets that you agreed were appropriate and achievable. So where do we go from here?
Adam: You know, so we’ve got to have a kind of honest discussion, haven’t we, around, performance and how we measure it and, you know, really try and key into what’s important. Perhaps, cause that’s the other thing, right? Don’t get too hung up on less important numbers that, you know, might actually not, might not be core, core to what you need to
Michelle: think I think there’s something you’ve just said there, Adam, is gets to pay review time and then not hitting the numbers and the targets. I think if that’s the case, you need to address that at the time, not leave it. Cause if the,
Adam: Of course.
Michelle: yeah. So making sure you performance manage
Adam: I meant, I mentioned, you know, it’s an ongoing process. So you track it a quarter by quarter. I always quite liked, but so there aren’t any surprises in absolutely at the end of the year. There’s no surprises, both employer and employee know where they’re at.
Adam: that’s, you know, always the best thing. so look, we’ve cut, we’ve run out of time. thoroughly enjoyed talking today, Michelle. if, MSP owners up and down the country wants to get hold of you, how would they do that?
Michelle: best way is probably find me through LinkedIn.
Adam: Okay.
Michelle: Either LinkedIn or over on the website, either or.
Adam: Okay. So Michelle Coombs, the tech leader network. excellent. Dan, any last final points?
Daniel: not on this topic, but, I think we’ll be interested to have Michelle back on the podcast, next year with, some interesting, developments. you may not want to mention exactly what they are now, Michelle, but, our listeners should be following, keeping a close eye.
Daniel: Right.
Michelle: They absolutely should be done. Yes.
Adam: what a teaser, well tune in to part two, then next year everybody and thanks as much and we’ll speak to you soon.
Michelle: Thanks for having me guys.