In this episode, Barney answers listener questions about navigating pension fund performance, risk, and fees. The discussion addresses key differences between workplace and self-managed pensions (SIP), the importance of examining fund fact sheets, and understanding total investment costs, including fees from financial advisors. Barney emphasizes investing time in financial education to make informed decisions and highlights the benefits of low-cost investing. The episode also touches on pension protection, asset allocation, and the impact of compounding over time. Finally, listeners get a realistic look at retirement strategies and the significance of planning ahead.
00:00 Introduction and Agenda Overview
00:18 Understanding Pension Fund Performance and Risk
01:18 Workplace vs. Self-Managed Pensions
03:18 Importance of Fund Fact Sheets
04:25 Customer Service and Getting Help
07:42 The Impact of Fees on Pension Growth
13:48 Starting a Pension at 50: How Much to Invest
22:32 Pension Protection vs. Bank Deposits
29:56 The Power of Compounding and Asset Allocation
33:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Connect with Barney Whiter on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/barney-whiter-5474731/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We created It’s a Numbers Game Podcast to help MSP owners learn and understand how to build and maintain a financially healthy MSP business. In this podcast series, MSP business owners like you will learn the fundamental steps, the tips and tricks, the dos and don’ts to achieve MSP financial growth.
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript;
Dan: Thanks for joining us Barney. We’ve, we’ve got a good five or six questions without the follow up questions. So, we’ll try and make this as, as, as efficient as we can. we’ll start with a question from,Daniel from Buckinghamshire. No, no relation. Daniel wrote to us and asked, Where do I actually start with understanding, first of all, pension fund performance and,associated to that risk?
Dan: And, and I’m really unsure about how the fees work as well. perhaps you could, kick us off with, with some information there,
Barney: So would that be for a workplace pension? is that what you’re talking about? Or like a private sort of, pension that’s self managed like a SIP? Okay.
Dan: the latter.
Barney: and are you talking about someone that has already got it or they’re trying to choose what, where to start? They’re trying to get started and they don’t know where to start.
Dan: well, reading Daniel’s, handwritten notes that he sent into us, it looks like he’s already started and has, perhaps just put a bit of money across a couple of different providers, in order to, in order to make a start, but not necessarily with any strategy behind it.
Barney: Yeah. Well, let’s say you were Let’s say you, let’s do both, right? So if you’re in a workplace pension, then typically your employer has an arrangement with an insurance company, typically, like Legal General, or, You know, Aviva or, LNG, something like that. And you know, you pay your contributions in, the employer pays their contributions in, and the insurance company offers a range of funds.
Barney: that, that you can choose to put your pension into. And each of those funds, if we’ll, this will always be on a, there’ll always be a website, a platform that you, the employee have access to. And each of the funds will have a fact sheet. And so it’s a matter of you know, getting the login details, getting your password, maybe you need to hit up your HR person at work, and, getting access to that platform.
Barney: So that, that would be the case if it’s a, like, if someone was employed by, an employer. If we’re talking about, a self managed pension or a private pension, then the same thing applies, but there’s no, you’re not, you know, you’re not tied in the same way, be you make the choice. Your employer doesn’t make the choice.
Barney: And so most typically, that’s like a self invested personal pension or sip as it’s called. And so, you know, let’s say you had a sip with. Vanguard, or a SIP account with AJ Bell or a SIP account with Hargreaves Lansdown. Those are just, investment accounts that you, that have, like, beneficial tax status, you pay money in, you can’t get it out until pensionable age.
Barney: But again, like, each of the funds that you choose from will have a fund fact sheet. And that fact sheet will tell you performance, risk and fees. And so, you know, typically if I went to Vanguard and looked at the Vanguard Global All Cap Index Fund fact sheet, that will tell me the performance over the last six months, the last one year, the last two years, three years, five years, 10 years.it will tell me like there’ll be a risk factor, like from one to seven attached to it. And it will tell me the percentage fees you pay each year. So the information’s always there. You just got to, you got to ask and you got to look for it and you got to go get it.
Dan: and it sounds like, you’ve also got to invest the time yourself in actually reading that information and, and digesting it. And then if you’re unsure, then,asking, presumably all of these, providers have some form of customer services, contacts that you can pick up the phone or, you know, chat or if you’ve got questions,
Barney: Yeah, absolutely. So, so someone like Vanguard, for example, they’ve got a perfectly decent customer services, team who you can email, you can phone, AJ Bell, the same Hargreaves Lansdown, the same. And. It’s the point I always make to like my coaching clients is like, they’re there to help you. Don’t be shy.
Barney: Ask them, make them do that, do men do their job, earn their money, earn their salary, get the answers you want. If you need to be a rottweiler, but don’t get fobbed off. And they’re not like, you know, some of these call center customer service Teams for utilities are awful, but in financial services, they tend to be pretty high quality, like the customer services, teams.
Barney: Cause it’s cause kind of everything is regulated. And so, you know, they won’t. They can’t bullshit you. They can’t lie to you. you know, you may not get the answer you want straight away, but you just need to persist.
Dan: great advice. And, and I think then, Daniel from Buckinghamshire, if you’re listening, you should get yourself a flask of coffee and book a couple of hours in your diary and, and just pick up the phone and talk to, talk to your providers and, and try and educate yourself as to what you’ve got and What the options are to adjust the risk, the fees,the return, within, within your tolerances.
Dan: so
Barney: what I always say on that is like, okay, you know, It’s a couple of hours for you to like, dig out your paperwork, get your log in, you know, trying, you know, work your way through the user interface at Vanguard or AJ Bell or Hargreaves Lansdown, someone like that, but it is the most valuable tool.
Barney: two hours you’ll ever spend, probably the highest paid two hours you’ll ever spend, because if you know, if you are making sure that you’re in the right fund, and with the right asset allocation and low fees, that Over the course of an investing lifetime, which could be like 40, 50 years, we’re talking about hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds of difference, but you just got to spend the two hours up front, right?
Barney: You’ve got to invest that two hours up front to get your financial shit together. Excuse my French.
Dan: that, that’s fine. That Adam may or may not,edit, edit that out. But, in, in, in summary, we’re basically saying you could earn 100, 000 an hour, if, if you invest the time in this. So,
Barney: Easily. Easily.
Dan: great.
Adam: Barney, just a sort of a side comment to this.if you happen to have, an IFA or other intermediary involved here in that fund,you’ve now added some complication, haven’t you, because you can talk to the. Fund provider, but you are only gonna get part of the detail on your fees ’cause they don’t know the additional fees that you’re being charged.
Adam: so any sorts of, any sort of comment there on Well, and maybe there’s a wider comment actually just generally around these intermediaries and advisors, which are sort of pertinent to the, to this particular question.
Barney: Yeah. So what we’re trying to get is your all in cost of percent, you’re all in cost of investing, that’s really important. So, like, the illustration I always give on, about this is imagine, an 18 year old. who gets a job, saves 15, 000 between the age of 18 and 25, so 167 a month.
Barney: And that goes into the Vanguard Global All Cap Index Fund or some low cost tracker fund. And between the age, and then they save nothing more from 25 to 65. Well, if they get, 10 percent per annum total return, then their 15, 000 pounds will grow and compound to just over a million pounds at the age of 65. Okay. That’s pretty good.if however, they pay 2 percent per year to, of total investing costs to financial advisors, wealth managers, fund managers, platform fees, et cetera, then. The 10 percent per year before fees becomes 8 percent a year after fees, and the 15, 000 does not turn into 1, 000, 000, the 15, 000 only turns into 457, 000 over the 40 years.
Barney: So what’s 2 percent between friends? 2 percent is a huge difference over 40 years. it’s more, it will more than half what you end up with. So that’s the problem with paying, you know, 2 percent per year in combined fund management, financial advisory, wealth management fees. That’s why it’s so important to invest low cost in my opinion.and so if you do have a financial advisor, I mean financial advisors, have their uses, they can certainly get you started.they get people started who are phobic about filling in a few forms themselves and can’t or won’t do it themselves. and so they do provide a service, but it’s, it works out as an incredibly expensive service if you’re paying them on a percentage fee basis.
Barney: And so if you do have a financial advisor, you know, you can ask them, what are the all in fees that I’m paying expressed as a percentage? Please break that down for me. And if they don’t do that clearly, then you need to file them.
Adam: Yeah, I just think that’s just so important. to have that, and maybe there’s an element here, of,of not wanting to appear rude, perhaps, you know, but actually that, that, that fee audit. It is really important. It’s really important to know, you know, what you’re paying for the service.
Adam: Because it is something that’s often glossed over. I know with new regulations, it’s now more front and center. but I still think it’s something that’s vital to understand, because of the example that you’ve, you just put there. So thank you for that answer. But back to you, Dan.
Dan: Yeah, thank you. Yes. yeah,and I guess,if you know, if Daniel from Buckinghamshire, he’s, he’s listening, he goes and looks and he sees 2 percent when he’s, when he’s digging into his,his, online portal, yeah, 2 percent is a massive number and, and so, so you’ve got to, you’ve got to understand the fee.
Dan: And, and understand what the implication of it are. So, so yeah,really great tip there. so,
Barney: on that 2%, the average across the St. James place portfolio, I know this, that they were charging, the average client, 2. 4 percent per year. So when I throw out these numbers, like 2 percent a year, major large firms are charging that number and higher. And. It absolutely murders you over time.
Adam: and the important. Point here though, is that they would argue, that there’s value in that 2.4% versus the 0.25% you’d pay at Vanguard. but we tend to differ with that perspective, don’t we, Barney, in terms of that value, you know?
Barney: Yeah. I mean, let’s be fair, let’s argue on their side of the argument for a moment.the best argument for a financial advisor, or a wealth manager like that is that they’re like a line of last resort in. a crisis to stop you doing something dumb. So let’s say, you know, March, April, 2020, when COVID hits, everyone panics, everything, everyone thinks the world’s going to end.
Barney: So the stock market sells off, all markets sell off. And like, if you were just self managing, like. a rookie mistake would be to panic and dump everything and go to cash. Now, if your wealth manager stopped you doing that and kept you in the market and kept you on the straight and narrow, then they’d be worth their fee.But if you’re educated and you understand that stock market investing is a long term proposition, then you can do that yourself and you can hold your own nerve and you can ignore the sort of panic in the media and the hype in the media and that tends to happen every few years when there’s a financial crisis.
Barney: And you just sort of ignore it all and you carry on and you manage, you know, you just keep dollar cost averaging in every month. so I’m not going to say there’s no argument for a financial advisor, or a wealth manager that there can be, they can stop you doing something stupid, or at least, say to you before you, before you pull the trigger, I wouldn’t recommend that, sir.
Barney: So, they have their uses, but I, but they’re very expensive.
Dan: well, yeah. great insights. moving, moving on. Bob from Berkshire has written to us, and,Bob is,not really giving his age away here cause he’s got quite a range. He’s saying, you know, if he were starting a pension at 50 years old,how much should he invest in order to have a 50, 000 pound a year pension assuming that he retires at 70?
Dan: Uh,demises at 90 and doesn’t leave anything to his, to his family. Is that an easy one to answer? ha!
Barney: that is not an easy one to answer, but because I knew it was coming, I ran, I created a little spreadsheet. so I created a financial model to,to calculate that. I mean, if you make certain simplifying, assumptions, the answer let’s, well, I’ll just give you the answer straight away.
Barney: The answer is 1,675 pounds per month. So let’s say you start with nothing at age 50. you haven’t saved anything.and then at age 50 you save, 1675 per month. so that’s 20, 100 a year.that will, and then you do that for 20 years, and then you run down the pot between 70 and 90, and spend 50, 000 a year, assuming like 5 percent real investment. return and a drawdown rate of 8%. And I’ve ignored state pension here. So if I want, if I wanted to do this more accurately and tailored to the individual, I’d be looking at, oh, what other assets have you got? Do you own a house? Are you going to downsize the house? Like, all of these things would be factored in.
Barney: and, and I would look at what state pension, you know, they would get, look at their contribution, their national insurance contribution record, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, if you just want the simple answer, it’s 1, 675 quid there or thereabouts.
Dan: really interesting and perhaps not as scary as Bob from Berkshire might have, might have first imagined that, you know, if, if you haven’t saved the, the 25, 25, 000 when you were 18 and,and you’ve, you’re only just starting on this journey,at 40 or 50 years old, then it’s not too late.
Dan: And I guess it’s never too late.
Barney: Yeah. I mean, if he wanted to be, if he wanted to make it a lot easier, he would start at 40 rather than 50, because that way 10, you’d have 10 years of compounding, 10 years of the market doing more of the work. And him having to save less. So that’s the first point. the second point is like what he’s trying to do is inherently fraught with danger in the sense that he’s trying to die with zero. And so the problem with that is it’s okay in a mathematical example. when you know, you’re going to die at 90, but if you’re not going to die in actuality until you’re 110, well, you just got 20 years with no money.when you’re probably not
Adam: Yeah. But you’re cile then, so it doesn’t matter.
Barney: well,there’s some, you know, I kind of agree with that a little bit, actually.
Adam: I just wanted to say as, as well though, actually, because isn’t Bob Mar married to Barbara, and Barbara could also take out a similar pension. Working in the same MSP. So now we’re talking about two sets of 20, 000 a year coming out, and saving on corporation tax and two, two,state pensions.
Adam: And now we’ve got a hundred grand income coming through, haven’t we? and this is literally with zero savings at 50. So if you look at it, actually, if you’ve got a fairly healthy business on, you know, not, you know, not a great performer, but fairly healthy,it’s very doable. you know, in that kind of 50 to 70 year period, which may seem like complete dire straits, but actually, yeah, do you know what we can pull together maybe something around a hundred grand a year retirement planning.
Adam: So, so that’s pretty good.
Dan: It is essentially by making the assumption that you’re happy to die with zero. Obviously you make. So, you know, I come from the sort of, the world where people are interested in financial independence and in a sense, that’s playing on hard mode because you’re trying to get to a pot where you could kind of go on living for forever and ever.
Barney: Amen. And the pot would just. support you and you would never run out, run down the pot. so, so this idea of actually, if you’re prepared to take a bit of gamble a bit on how long you live, cause that is a gamble. and you’re prepared to die with zero, then it makes the numbers much more achievable and manageable. And the other, and obviously the other thing that makes it a lot easier is frugality. So, now, so Bob’s example of 50, 000 a year, I don’t know many 90 year olds who spend as much as they did when they were 70 or 60 or 50 or 40. So most 90 year olds ain’t spending that much money.
Dan: and of course, therefore you’ve got, just one of a gazillion of variables there that, that, that can affect the model. And,and it’s a great point you make about,the comparison to the, to the financial independence model. I’ve not asked you, ahead of time this question, so you may not have a model there, but,is,is there a way of just tweaking that monthly amount to like, if 1600 became, say 3000 pounds or 5,000 pounds a month,if we were working to say the.
Dan: The 60,000,value,per year. Like,does that get us, either a, we can live longer or a bit of a pot to, to pass on?
Barney: Sorry, I’m not quite clear on the question.
Dan: So if we were to change our 1600 pounds a month at 50, and we made it 3000 pounds a month for. 5, 000 a month. how would, how long can we live? Or,if,if we left our, our exit point the same, how much might we leave to our family?
Barney: yeah. Okay. Okay. I can’t. Well, I can do the, how much would you leave to your family? So what, let me put it. So you give, you wanted to make it 3000 a month. Is that right?
Dan: 3, 000 a month. Yep.
Barney: Okay. So for 3000 a month, instead of spending, if you still wanted to die with zero, instead of spending sort of 50, 000 a month, a year rather, you could, you’re now up at more like 90, 000.so I can tell you right off the bat, I can’t, what I can’t tell you from my spreadsheet is if you wanted to stay at 50, but then run that out until you’re 120.
Barney: you know, when would that run to? But yeah, it would, it probably would run you out another You know, I’m, you know, 15 years. So are you going to, you’re going to live longer than 105? I doubtful.
Dan: We’ve got other podcast episodes where we talk about,living healthily and hopefully extending that. So perhaps our listeners will put these two episodes together to, to
Dan: Well, the
Barney: funny. You mentioned, it’s funny. You mentioned that it’s because I see the two as intertwined as like health and wealth as intertwined. And I’m constantly amazed at how people don’t join the dots between the two. and I really think, that you kind of have to think about both.
Barney: and so, cause like essentially money’s just a tool to live the life that you want to live and a big part of that is, you know, what quality of life do you want, how long do you want to, live and like your lifestyle choices have a huge impact on that. Huge impact on that. Is
Dan: really great point. And, just keeping an eye on time. We’ve, we’ve probably got more questions than we’ve got time for. we can probably skip over. Adam from Wilshire had, had written us, written us a letter, but the handwriting’s a bit difficult to read and, he normally is quite controversial with his questions.
Dan: So we’ll skip over, we’ll skip over
Barney: like the green crayon one?
Dan: The green crayon one. Exactly. Yeah. So, let’s let’s see who we’ve got next. so, hopefully quite a quick one actually. Mike from Gloucestershire asks, are pensions protected in the same way as bank deposits?
Barney: They’re not protected in the same way as bank deposits. but they don’t really need to be. So the thing about banks is all banks are bust if the depositors ask for their money back. No matter how safe the bank is, if everyone wants the money back at the same time, the bank cannot pay. So a bank is, a bust institution by design if everyone wants their money back at the same time.
Barney: So, because they lend it out. So they take your short term deposit and they lend it to, you know, a big companies or to people for mortgages, for example. And so you don’t want your mortgage, like, called in at short notice. So banks have got this, maturity mismatch between short term deposits and long term loans.
Barney: So You know, and remember Northern Rock in 2008, 2009, you know, banks can’t pay back the money when everyone wants to, wants it at once. So for that reason, it makes perfect sense that, banks get some sort of special, you protection. Money in banks gets some sort of special protection.and so, yeah, like, it makes, it, it doesn’t make sense to have huge amounts of cash, sat idle. It doesn’t make sense to have a lot of cash sat uninvested because you’re just being, it’s like an ice sculpture at a party. It’s melting in front of your eyes. Because of inflation, it’s not growing in real terms. It’s shrinking in real terms.if you know, if you did have a lot of cash, you, it, you, it could make sense to split it between, institutions so that you, fall within the 85K, limit.
Barney: So I kind of get the reason for that, but with pensions, I just don’t, I just don’t worry about it. Because with pensions. All pension providers are regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. One of the fundamental principles of financial services regulation is the separation of client money. So that means the client’s assets are not jumbled up with the assets of the institution itself.
Barney: So let’s say Hargreaves Lansdown goes bust because they owe Barclays 100m and they can’t pay Barclays 100m. Well, Barclays can go to court and it can demand that Hargreaves Lansdown, you know, gives it what it, what gives Barclays all its assets, but it, what it can’t do is get the customer’s assets.
Barney: So, the customer’s assets are safe from creditors. They’re not co mingled. With the, the investment providers assets. And so even if your pension provider goes bust, it shouldn’t be a problem because your money is held separately. And, the, you know, another, you know, an arrangement will be made where another firm takes it over.
Barney: So 85K is relevant for bank savings, not relevant for pension savings.
Dan: Presumably,thanks for that. Presumably. Uh,this is one of those where you’ll have seen at the value of investments can go up and down the actual fund that you’re invested in,could suffer a loss or reduction, but presumably that comes back to the risk point. I don’t know if that’s ever
Barney: there’s no. Well, there’s no protection for that. So when you, if you have a pension and the pension is invested in the stock market, if the stock market goes up, then you benefit. And if the stock market goes down, you suffer.there’s no protection from that with a sort of normal, defined contribution pension?
Dan: and, therefore,if the stock market went down to such a degree and for such a period of time, and that happened to be the time that you wanted to take money out of your pension, then that’s the worst situation that you might imagine. and equally the best situation you might imagine is that you happen to draw it when the market’s really high.
Dan: Okay.
Barney: I’ve got a very active imagination, so I can imagine lots of bad things, but, I don’t, so your question, I think, is, relates to the old world, if I can put it that way. So, imagine in the old world, Where you used to save until retirement age of 65, and you built up this pot of assets in the stock market, and then on retirement day, you had to buy an annuity with that pot.
Barney: What that meant, it was a really big problem if the day before you retired, the stock market fell 30 percent because essentially you’ve locked in a 30 percent lower annuity income for the rest of your life. So in the bad old days, it was a really big deal, like where the stock market was on the day that you retired and flipped into an annuity. In. And then that changed, whatever it was, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, and you no longer had to buy an annuity. And so, this was, George Osborne’s pension freedoms, back in the day. And essentially now you have the ability to draw down flexibly from the pension. So you don’t have to ever convert to an annuity.
Barney: you can just take a little bit of your Pot the year that you retire and you take a bit more the year after, and you take a bit more the year after that, but you’re, you don’t have this huge problem of what the level of the stock market is on the day that you retire and the day that you convert into annuity.
Barney: So that’s actually not, it’s not a big problem these days. Does
Barney: Brilliant. sense?
Dan: absolutely. And if the stock market is worth nothing, then presumably the, there’s other negative situations, beyond the value of your pension at that point.
Barney: Yeah, and this is what I say to people like you just got to get on this and work on the assumption that the world will carry on, you know, and if the world doesn’t carry on, you’re going to be fighting over cockroaches, you’re not going to be looking at your pension plan. So, so you just. Just work, you know, this bogs down so many people.
Barney: It’s like, Oh, what if this happens? What if that happens? Yeah. Like there’s no guarantees in life. but if you just look at like, look at where we are compared to a hundred years ago, like look at the scale of wealth that’s been built, it’s absolutely astonishing and the way to benefit from that is to own the stock market.
Dan: Brilliant. and you’ve, you’ve actually,taken this into, into another question. Russ from Putney, was asking us,and I think we’ve already covered most of his questions, but,he was somewhere between the 40 and the 50 and,and was, was struggling with the, asset allocation step in the compounding,model.
Dan: sounds like he’s got some pretty bad habits of, buying, interest in equities on a whim and holding too much cash. Anything we’ve not already covered that you think Russ from Putney should think about.
Barney: Well, it’s a really good question. And it’s so common. That we should address it, like, even if we’ve kind of touched on it already. So,You’ve written about the importance of building a compounding machine. So what I talk about is imagine that when you save, you pay yourself first. So you take money, from your business or from your job, from your pay packet.
Barney: And you put that to work, you take it out of your current account, you take it away from temptation. You put it somewhere where you can’t spend it. And I use this concept of the cons of the compounding machine. In other words, you put it into this black box, which is, which represents the stock market and investing on a tax efficient basis.
Barney: You put money in, and then you get this incredible compounding. Effect that I talked about earlier, whereby 15, 000 pounds turned into a million pounds over 40 years, it only does that if it’s in your compounding machine, as soon as you spend money, you’ve lost the compounding effect. And so like Warren Buffett had this sort of phrase, which was like, once you understand the power of compound interest, once you understand the power of compound growth in the stock market, you never want to interrupt it. And so that means. What are the implications of that? You know, it means, you know, the best time to start investing was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. It means that you don’t try and like jump in and jump out of the market. Based on the headlines in the newspaper at any given time, it would have been a colossal, you know, as I referred to earlier, it would have been a colossal mistake to jump out of the stock market in 2008, 2009, during the global financial crisis, it would have been a colossal mistake to jump out the stock market in March, April, 2020 with COVID, you know, like we have these panics on a, you know, every 10 years or so.
Barney: I’ve lived through like quite a few of them now and you just have to let compounding continue and like focus on time in the market rather than timing the market. So that’s the sort of get on with it and don’t don’t mess around. don’t. allow compounding to work its magic and he talks about, asset allocation.
Barney: Well, asset allocation can be made really complicated, but I don’t know, but like, don’t do that. Don’t overcomplicate it. Keep it simple, stupid. So for a huge number of people, like a perfectly decent asset allocation would be own one house.own a cash emergency fund of X months, let’s say six months living expenses, and everything else could go into global equities. Now obviously you can have any number of different asset allocations, but like, that’s a very simple template to start from.
Dan: And I think that pretty much covers most of the questions in all of their formats. So, it’s been a really interesting and educational conversation. if a little bit controversial in places and that the, the beeping machine might be going into overdrive,when Adam gets to,to editing this, but,it’s been great talking to you again.
Dan: And,any final thoughts,Adam,
Adam: no, not enough time,for all the questions from Adam from Wiltshire, I know he eager to put those questions through. So perhaps, well, definitely I think we can have Barney on again. There’s just more and more to talk about here. I think we’re only literally, touching the surface of this subject.
Adam: and I think, if we can revisit it and extend some of these conversation, I think that’d be great.
Dan: brilliant. Thank you. thank you very much. And, yeah, hopefully we’ll have you back soon, Barney.
Barney: Thanks guys. My pleasure.
Adam: Cheers.