Why Tune In?
Understand Payment Innovations: Dive into the evolution of payment methods within the MSP sector, with a special focus on overcoming objections to automated payment systems.
Learn About Seamless Integration: Discover how new platforms like Zomentum are addressing the gaps in payment processing by integrating directly with accounting software, making your financial operations smoother.
Strategies for Boosting Cash Flow: Gain insights on how MSPs can streamline their payment processes to enhance cash flow and reduce the administrative burden of manual payment collections.
Join us to explore these crucial financial strategies that can transform the way MSPs handle payments, ensuring efficiency and growth in your operations.
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Ben Spector on LinkedIn by clicking here
– https://www.linkedin.com/in/benspector1/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We created It’s a Numbers Game Podcast to help MSP owners learn and understand how to build and maintain a financially healthy MSP business. In this podcast series, MSP business owners like you will learn the fundamental steps, the tips and tricks, the dos and don’ts to achieve MSP financial growth.
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
Transcript;
Dan: Thanks for joining us today. and when I say us, I of course mean myself, Daniel Welling and my regular co host Adam, and today we’re joined also by, a returning guest, Ben Spector from Zomentum. And,today we’re going to be accompanying your gym session, your walking of the dog, your driving to the gym or whatever you’re doing right now.
And, and we’re going to dive straight in. Well, with a pretty punchy question for Ben around, around, the direct debit journey that I think the MSP market’s been on really over the last decade, Ben, what, where do we start with
Ben: So I think first of all, I’d expand the scope out slightly from direct debit, because I think the problem we want to be looking at really is collecting payments in general, because there are different points in the customer journey where you’re wanting to collect payment. There are different payment mechanisms that are.
Prevalent in different regions. you know, for example, when we talk about direct debit in the UK, in America, they refer to it as ACH. I think the Canadians call it ETF. In Europe, they have a wonderfully consolidated system under SEPA. you know, the pattern continues across the world. there are a ton of different schemes that all broadly relate to the same thing, which is collecting money directly from a bank account, but.
But then aside from all of those, sort of bank transfer mechanisms, you’ve also obviously got card payments that come into it. you know, Visa, MasterCard, Amex, and various other smaller schemes. I think quite often people forget that. Different payment methods are popular in different regions. and so to our American audience, they’re probably a lot more familiar with collecting card payments to some extent over ACH.
one of the reasons it’s okay for them to collect card payments as MSPs is that they’re, I don’t agree with it, but they are still allowed to pass on card transaction fees to their customers. So credit card fees are much higher in the U S than they are in the UK, but in the U S they might pass on that 3 percent or whatever it is to the customer.
Europe completely banned the whole concept of passing on credit card fees. Specifically, actually, they phrased it that you’re not allowed to make credit cards more expensive than any other payment method. So it wasn’t specifically about passing on fees or charging a surcharge. You also can’t discount other payment methods to make credit cards more expensive.
So they sort of caught both sides of that legislation. but getting away from the slightly sort of in depth tech technical bit of it here, you know, what is the core problem? I think a lot of MSPs are still collecting payments manually. and by manually, I mean, they’re asking their clients to make some kind of push payment.
Either the client has to log into their online banking and push a payment, or they have to call up and make a card payment, whatever it may be, it’s a push payment and that results in very slow payments, it results in a lot of chasing of clients, and overall that starts to hurt cashflow and when cashflow is hurt, business growth hurts.
So
Adam: give you
Ben: how do we solve that? And ultimately, it’s about pushing your clients into a corner where they have to pay on your terms. You know, why do MSPs still allow their clients to pay on their terms? I just don’t think that’s the right way to approach it. You know, the contract the client signs is your contract, which is your terms.
The stack you deliver is your stack, which is on your terms. And yet for payments, they’re willing to let the client make all the decisions and decide when, how much, you know, why I just don’t get that. so I guess we have to consider why, you know, what are the objections to recurring payments?
Are there objections coming from the client side or the objections coming internally? and actually I think most of the objections are coming internally from within the MSP, because if you put yourself in the shoes of the customer, you want the easiest journey. You know, when I’m a customer, I actually don’t want to have to log in and manually go and pay suppliers.
You know, imagine if you had to log in to your online banking and pay Netflix each month, you just wouldn’t do it. And the amount of churn would be ridiculous. And the amount of effort, if you had to pay all of your suppliers manually is ridiculous. So how many of you as MSPs are actually paying any of your suppliers manually?
Probably very few of you. Okay. Like by the end of my MSP, I don’t think any of our suppliers took manual payments. The hardware distributors, they were collecting direct debit. All of the SAS vendors, they were charging the card automatically. Like, and I, so I just don’t understand why us as MSPs accept it the other way and assume that our clients want to pay us manually.
Cause the chances are, they don’t. So you’ve got the objections. Where’s the objection really coming from? Well, it’s probably not coming from the client. It’s coming internally. What are the other potential objections? Well, you’ve got fees, you know, are the payments going to start costing you a lot more money?
And there’s two angles to that. You’ve got the direct fee being charged by the payment method or the payment processor. But you’ve also got the cost of not automating payments. So if you think that taking checks in the mail, as the Americans would say, or bank transfers is cheaper, or it’s not because the human side of that, reconciling the check, taking it to the bank, reconciling the online payment, figuring out who’s paid, matching payments up to invoices, chasing those that haven’t, the human cost of that almost certainly massively outweighs the fees you’re paying to automate that process.
Adam: system. You know, like,
Ben: And so you’ve got the, where’s the objection coming from? What are the fees? I remember in my MSP looking, we implemented direct debit. It was using one of the biggest processors at the time, go cardless, who launched in the UK and it was the first time it was probably around 20. 13, something like that.
So it was quite early, but it was the first time small businesses could collect direct debit. Because before then you had to have your own, service user number. You had to have a sponsoring bureau. You had, you know, it was not easy. You had to have a relationship with your bank that probably involved a revenue of five or 10 million pounds.
Plus before you can even begin to be considered for direct debit. And then if you did manage to get accepted for a scheme, you had to put up a massive, sort of guarantee because of the way the direct debit guarantee works, that the, your customer can essentially dispute any transaction and gets immediately refunded you as the MSP would have had to have put up a massive deposit as security with the bank to cover those kinds of liabilities.
So it was a lot harder. And it is now a lot easier.
Adam: So, so are we saying that, it’s now 10 years on and yet.
Ben: Don’t remind me, Adam.
Adam: The MSP industry is still struggling to really exploit this opportunity. And certainly in the conversations I have, the degree to which they’re not exploiting, automating the payments, you know, is always lurking there somewhere. And it’s always something that will help them in terms of their cash flow, early warning systems for problem clients, you know, close to going into administration.
Um,just reducing that. The overhead of chasing,and those are necessary interactions that you get, you know, in chasing your clients. So there’s so many positives. I mean, what do you think, Ben is why do you think some MSP owners are reluctant to fully immerse themselves in this?
Ben: It, so the reason we ended up having this conversation was off the back of Zementum launching a new payments platform. So we’ve had the opportunity to really study what those payments are. Objections look like and what kind of challenges specifically we’ve had to solve in order to encourage folks to automate their payment process.
and I think one of the most prevalent weirdly has been integration. Like there are a lot of most MSPs globally are going to be using either QuickBooks online. Or zero, and there are some legacy MSPs. I’m going to refer to them as legacy. I’ll probably get strangled, but they’re using QuickBooks desktop or other solutions like that.
So I know Intuit just announced that they’re completely killing QuickBooks desktop for new customers in the U S in July. And they end of life in the UK a couple of years ago, but, you know, most are going to be using QuickBooks or zero. So. There’s very little value in automating payment if you can’t properly integrate it with your accounting software.
I think GoCardless managed to tackle that really well because they went to market with those QuickBooks and Xero integrations, and to some extent Zementum have sort of copied from that playbook and taken the big two and launched those as the initial integrations. Because if you don’t have that integration in place, your route to taking the invoice amounts to get them collected, you’re having to sort of export from accounting, import to some payment platform, see what the results are, export the results, import them back into accounting.
and so. You know, go cardless came to market with a solution that completely automated that process. the other, you know, within my MSP, one of the big limitations go cardless only supports direct debit style payments. So the ACH direct debit SEPA that we mentioned earlier. If you are also collecting card payments, slightly less common in the UK, but still massive in the U S you then also end up needing some other platform so that you can collect the, the card payments alongside direct debits.
And so one of the things that Zementum wanted to do right from the outset was bring both of those payment methods together onto the same platform. So there’s no need to have multiple platforms for different payment methods.
Dan: Whilst I absolutely agree the integrations is key,you know, I think I’d have been happy going back 10 years, I’d have been happy just to be able to collect, on, and get the cash and pay what I’m being asked to pay today, to collect and have the integrations to,to be honest.
so I wonder if actually we’re to answer Adam’s. question. We’re actually going back to this internal struggle that an MSP owner or commercial person having the interaction with the customer is at what point are they actually covering this topic of that? this is the price and it is based on us collecting money.
In advance or on 7 days or 14 or even 30. And I know, conversations I’ve had with people just feel very awkward about the whole conversation full stop, let alone bringing in the sort of 30 days, which is a very old fashioned payment term. duration, even bringing that down to 14 days could, you know, could double someone’s cashflow in effect if they’re 30 days plus now.
So, have you come across any of those, how to tackle those conversations in, in, you know, in, in launching this new, new platform
Ben: Yeah, definitely. And the Sean Tarch that they’ll get my words out. The short answer is the MSPs are wrong here. And let me explain thatthe, one of the most common objections has been my clients want to pay by check or my clients want to pay by bank transfer. Nonsense. They don’t, you just haven’t had the conversation with them yet.
Oh, but we’ve been doing it that way for years. That’s what they’re used to. Who cares what they’re used to. Because they probably don’t want to do it that way anyway, you know, there you as an MSP are there to take them on their own digital transformation journey, introduce them to technology, introduce them to the future, and yet you’re obstructing them being able to introduce more automation into their business.
By being a dinosaur about how you take their money, you know, if you’re encouraging them to automate the way they deal with their customers and the way that their bills come into them, and you know, if they still have to log into something to manually pay you, you’re actually breaking the ability for them to automate their own accounting processes.
Which I think is quite an interesting way to look at it.
Adam: And it’s very difficult for a client to turn around and say, no, I want to have manual control over my payments. So, you know, using that as an argument, well, well, why? Well, I just do, you know, but it is, it’s a mindset, isn’t it? And it’s cultural, it’s historical. but for me, it’s right up there with one of the key things you can do to move your business forward.
and I think certainly in terms of, new clients, you know, that’s the, Probably the first starting point, just make sure every single new client you sign up is on your terms on your, automated payment terms, that’s your low hanging fruit probably. and have a go at getting your legacy clients,up on the program, but that may take you longer.
so that’s, I, for me, that’s always a great starting point. Just make it a routine,new client starting point.
Ben: Yeah, for sure. I obviously introducing things for new clients is much easier. I often describe the excitement of the sale and, you know, if you think when you go and buy a new car, for example, when you’re excited and committed to buying that new car, Daniel smiling,Daniel gets it. you know, when you’re excited about buying that new car, frankly, the dealer could probably pull pretty much any.
Niggling term on you at that point. And you’ll accept it because you want the car. You want to close the deal. You want to drive away. And there’s no reason, you know, the big and the great of sales always tell you that sales is emotional. It doesn’t matter whether it’s B2C, B2B, sales is always emotional.
And once the client’s committed emotionally to making the purchase and signing up with you and the journey you’re going to take them on. it’s really easy to include those kinds of payment terms, even if they didn’t necessarily want to, which I remind you they do anyway, but you know, even if they didn’t want to, it’s very easy to kind of get those, beneficial terms in at that point.
but then we’ll, you know, just remember. The chances are the existing clients do want their own lives simplified. They do want to eliminate manual work. And so they probably will be happy to move across to automated payment. And if you have to incentivize it slightly, I don’t really necessarily see any issue with that.
Because while you may, you know, like I said, while you may think that those manual payments are saving you money, they’re not, and we’ve Demonstrated why, so if you have to slightly incentivize the automated payment, it’s probably still going to save you money in the long term.
Dan: or even the disincentivization model of,if you don’t, move to direct debit, then there will be a, a non direct debit. Charge that will cover the increased cost of, of processing the transaction.
Ben: Yeah, and actually that’s what we did when we rolled onto direct debit, we, put out, I think it was a 25 admin fee for non automated payments. but I don’t think we really needed to because everyone wanted to do it anyway.
Adam: Hello,
Ben: Yeah,
Dan: so, uh,we’ve talked about new,new. customers and instilling the direct debit, or the direct payment,models straight away. and we’ve talked about,how there may be an,
Adam: you
Dan: to move those that really do want to,want to move across.
So, where next, I guess, like you, you mentioned, go And, and obviously momentum’s platform is new. So what’s wrong with GoCardless? That, that the momentum platform now,now resolves.
Ben: sure. So I was deeply involved with the design process for Zementum payments because yeah, I do the work I do with Zementum, but I also work with MSPs individually, sort of helping them with revenue operations. And so I was still using GoCardless because I had payments, recurring payments to collect, direct debit.
but GoCardless leaves quite a lot of gap.Specifically mentioned earlier, it only supports the bank type payment methods. It only does your direct debit, SEPA. It doesn’t handle credit card payments. So if you are needing to run both of those alongside each other, I was in my MSP, I did for my, I do for my, or did for my consulting, you end up needing.
Stripe, for example, for the credit cards and go cardless for direct debit. Stripe doesn’t integrate with QuickBooks. I know that. I know it learned that the hard way. I don’t know whether it integrates with Xero. It may do, but you still end up running two separate platforms. You’ve got, I think a lot of people have been quite pissed off with go cardless over the last six months.
Adam: add Adam’s nodding. know. I don’t know. I
Ben: they,they’ve introduced some certain additional fees. They pushed through some increases. they bumped everyone up onto. A more expensive plan without properly consulting. Yeah, they, they had, I think it’s standard pro and something else. I’ve only ever been on the standard plan, but when they bumped me up, they.
claimed that I was using, or I would benefit from features on the middle pro plan and therefore they just bumped me up and started charging me more. So I think they’ve really alienated quite a few, MSPs as a result. The fees are obviously always going up. They started out as the good guys.
they did genuinely bring a brilliant new service and a brilliant product to the market. But, you know, with growth and with. increased monopolization, I guess, perhaps to some extent, that’s not necessarily as true anymore. And there’s less of a desire to solve for the customer and more of a desire to just return profits to shareholders.
Dan: And so, uh,you mentioned some of the challenges with GoCardless. the first thing that I think about when moving from one, direct debit provider took to another would be, the, the existing mandates and,and am I going to have to go to my customer and,and have that conversation with them again, or is there a way of porting the mandate in some way to automate behind the scenes?
Ben: In short, yes, you are going to have the conversation and to use, I’m using your words here, have the conversation with the customer. the reason behind that’s quite interesting. I learned about six months ago. If you migrate mandates from. One provider to another, the new provider takes on full liability for the history of that mandate.
So if you’d been using GoCardless for four years and charge the dispute chargeback periods, typically six years. So you’ve, let’s say you’ve been using GoCardless for four years. If one of your clients that’s been working with you for three of those four years Initiates a dispute while the mandate sitting with go cardless are the ones initially on the hook for that dispute and they would then recover that from you, if we take over that mandate, even if you’ve literally ported it across yesterday and we get a dispute today.
We’ve also taken on the entire liability for the history of that mandate. So from a risk perspective, it just doesn’t make sense to port mandates like that. There are very few providers that will. However, to go back to your words, have that conversation with the customer. You don’t need to have any conversation with the customer.
The platform is built to. corner the customer into getting the payment method on file as easily as possible at every step of the process. So when your invoice first lands in QuickBooks online, for example, it doesn’t matter if you’ve generated it there manually, or if it comes from a recurring invoice, or if it’s synced in from your PSA, if that’s the.
If that customer doesn’t yet have a payment method on file, the email they get sent will have a pay now button so that they just click it, put their payment methods on file, and then the next time they get an invoice. Now we do have a payment method on file. It doesn’t matter if it’s card or direct debit, we can then automatically collect it.
We’ve got all the reminders in place. So you don’t need to chase the customers. We’ll periodically remind them to put the payment method in place. There are overdue invoices. As well. You know, all of those periodic reminders are there. So in theory, all the automation is there to help corner the customer into getting their payment method on file, and it’s really easy for them to put that payment method on file.
Dan: And if they’ve already got, a mandate in place, though, we are effectively, going to ask them to create a new mandate, which will then replace with the existing one, which, by the way, for the reasons we aforementioned won’t necessarily be a problem because,historically,supplies have changed Bank accounts,with, you know, with frequency and, oh, here’s our new bank details, please update.
So we’re only asking them to make one change. So, but, presumably another method of migration, if an MSP was concerned about, not necessarily doing this, but just managing it and having it as something else on their radar, they could presumably run GoCardless and Zementum side by side and have a blend that some customers have Having their invoices collected by one and some of the other, and then just gradually phase, phase from one to the other.
Ben: Yeah, absolutely. and actually managing risk was one of the things I was going to talk about anyway, because. You know, you cannot ignore the risk to cashflow if you’re making a major change like that. And so a few things to consider there. One, I would always recommend doing a bit of a phased migration, you know, decide that you’re going to do it over three months or over six months.
If you’ve got a hundred customers. Batch them off in twenties. You can enable them on the new platform and disable them on the old platform. You don’t even need to disable them on the old platform until they’ve actually acted on the new platform. So, you know, if you get two weeks into the invoice being due and they haven’t acted on the new platform.
Well, there’s nothing stopping you with just tapping the old platform to collect that payment. And we’ll try again with them next month. So you can. Do that kind of phased migration, that you can also technically run both platforms alongside each other. They’re both integrating into, QuickBooks or Xero in the same way.
so if you’ve got them enabled on Xementum and disabled on GoCardless, then Xementum will do its thing and GoCardless will do nothing or vice versa. And essentially when you’re doing the phased migration, all you’re doing is disabling them on one and enabling them on the other.and like I said, I would always recommend doing a phase migration.
I wouldn’t want to risk suddenly switching off all possible payment from a hundred customers in one month on the hope that they’re going to, you know, get done what they need to do on the other platform. the other thing we can do is. Is pre invite customers to set up their payment methods. So I mentioned earlier that when an invoice is generated, if they don’t have a payment method on file, it will ask for it where you can also initiate that process before any invoices even exist.
So, we’re, I was about to say when we’re talking, but that sort of dates the podcast, doesn’t it? you know, if this month we’ve decided that next month we’re going live with Zementum payments, well, then maybe two or three weeks in advance, I’m going to initiate that sort of pre invite process.
It’s going to include a bit of A cover note explaining we’re changing payment provider. This is what we need you to do. The email is going to come from your domain. It’s not going to come from a generic Zementum domain. It’s going to come from your domain. It’s going to be properly DKIM signed. So if you’re doing all your cyber security.
Training with your clients, it will be a legit email. It will pass all the checks, and it will have that ability for them to pre set up their payment methods. And then as they set those payment methods up, you can safely disable them on the old platform, knowing that when that next invoice gets issued,
you’ve got the right people enabled who’ve already set up their payment methods. So there’s quite a few ways to do it and handle it. But ultimately, yes, you must minimize risk. And, you know, I’m not going to sit here and say there is no risk.
Dan: so two, two points. well, first point really is,we’ve, we talked, under the assumption that for a new customer, you wouldn’t necessarily ask them to set up a direct debit until you issue the first invoice. But actually, as MSP finance team, we, we look to get the direct debit mandate issued before we issue the first invoice,as part of our onboarding process.
So, you know, we recommend people. Generally do that anyway, just to cut out any initial delay on that first invoicing and collection, the second point as you were talking, I was thinking, is this the same as and one of the my first experimentation with go cardless was it was pretty much risk free because, there was no.
There was no upfront cost. I set it up, I did my first,collection and I’m up and running. so, is there, is it similar, is this, charged as used or is there any provisioning or set up,that, our listeners should,should be thinking about?
Ben: I’ll hit the second question then the first one, cause the second question is much easier. No, no platform fee, no setup fee, no customer fee. All you’re paying is a transaction fees and the transaction fees are lower than GoCardless. They are lower than Stripe. They are lower than ConnectBooster. They are lower than WisePay.
They are definitely lower than QuickBooks online merchant provider. Anyone using them will know quite how expensive that option is. So there’s no fixed fees and all of the variable fees are lower than everything on the market.that was the easy one to answer.
Dan: and that actually covers off our shameless plug that we’d normally offer at the end. We’ve integrated it into the body of the episode.
Ben: That was always gonna happen. I know how these work. and so the first question, I think is the far more interesting one. And so what you asked was about, or not so much ask, but we’re gonna talk about the onboarding process and sort of getting those mandates in place and doing it earlier than when the first invoice is issued.
and for me, that’s where this gets really exciting. A lot of the listeners are going to be using Zementum Grow, which is the Zementum sales platform. If you’re using Zementum Grow, the only way to collect payments is using Zementum Payments. So you can, let’s say you’re doing hardware. Quote for a new or an existing client, they can accept the quote and make the payment at the same time.
So I would always recommend card payments for anything, hardware or out of pocket because the risk of dispute on direct debit and ACH is too high. Never sell servers and accept direct debit payments. Everyone never. anyway, so you can use it to collect your upfront payments, but if they’re signing a managed service proposal, you can also collect the.
Direct debit mandate at the same time. So if you let’s, you know, typical managed services proposal is probably going to have some kind of onboarding fee. And it’s going to have your recurring fees. for me, I would always want to collect the onboarding fee and the first month in advance. And I would probably want to collect those by card because card is instant capture.
It doesn’t take several days to settle like a direct debit does. So I want an instant capture payment method for the first month and any onboarding fees. A signature on a contract is great, but cash in the bank is always a bit. You know, better when it comes to measuring commitment, but I also then want to get the direct debit on file for the future months.
So by having payments platform deeply integrated with your sales tool, as well as your accounting tool, you can collect quote and proposal payments. You can set up any mandate you need. And then by the time that first invoice gets issued, you know, we talked about the excitement of the sale. They’ll do anything.
They’ll put their direct debit on file. They’ll give you their kidneys. you know, you collect everything you need upfront while they’re signing the contract. And that’s long in advance of that first invoice being issued and the payments there. Or if you’ve, so what, sorry, when I say the payments there, you collected that first month, you collected the onboarding fee.
There’s no invoice for that yet, because that was just the quote at the beginning of the journey. That probably then goes through the PSA. PSA generates the invoice, pushes it into accounting. We’ve already created the payment in the accounting, just articulating a lot. Anyone who knows me will know how that happens.
We’ve already created the payment in the accounting. So you have an unapplied payment sitting there. You’ve got an invoice that’s just landed and those two come together. So really seamless quote to cash, but also invoice to cash processes. And I think that is totally unique on the market. And that was one of the biggest gaps that I had with go cardless was actually, you know, we’ve talked about chasing for manual payments.
The other thing you have to chase for is. Direct edit mandates. and so if we can again, get that dealt with that during the excitement of the sale up front, we eliminate a whole load of the pain later on. And it sounds like that’s what you coach your clients to do.
Adam: that just makes so much sense. Removing any of these client communication obstacles. you know, head on makes so much sense. So, that’s great. And we’ve learned a lot around, the innovations in this product today. Where do you see this product going longer term? what are you, what are the plans on this?
Silence.
Ben: we’ve got a long way to go to truly solve all of the problems directly relating to. the MSP industry, the very specific stack looking around Zomentum Grow, your typical PSAs, QuickBooks, and Xero. You know, there’s a lot of stuff we want to do there. we launched QuickBooks first, have got tons of brilliant feedback from existing, you know, from the early adopters that most of which has been implemented now.
before we started tackling Xero, Which, which has now been launched, longer term. We want to open this up to the end customers of our partners.
Adam: The.
Ben: starts to get really interesting because there’s a brilliant revenue stream that’s very sticky. That’s very low effort. You know, all of your customers are collecting money themselves, and you’re trying to take your customers on a journey of.
You know, self discovery and digital, you know, entanglement and everything. You know, you are trying to modernize their businesses and modernizing their payment methods. and the way they handle cash is I think, a really important part of that. So, next big kind of innovative thing, we want to offer it to our partners as a way for them to make money collecting payments for their customers.
And I don’t think there’s anything available in the UK certainly that does that in a reliable way.
Adam: Yeah. Makes sense.
Dan: and I think almost certainly that’s a whole podcast episode in its own right. And, so we’ll be looking forward to, to recording one in a, well, in a few months time subject to when this is, when this is actually released and when we record that next one. but, no, it’s been a really interesting conversation.
the, yeah, lots of great tips, I think, for, for our listeners to, to pick up on. And,yeah, once again, Ben, absolute pleasure talking to you and thanks ever so much for joining us.
Ben: Thanks for having me as always. Yeah, I look forward to that next one. So I think digital unentanglement is going to have to fit in there somewhere. I need to trademark that I have a pile of things I need to trademark. I keep coming up with silly little expressions that no one uses.
Dan: For now, hopefully there’s some SEO value in it anyway, for our, again, for us and our listeners. So lovely. Thanks ever so much.
Adam: Yeah.