In this episode of “It’s a Numbers Game,” Daniel and Adam are joined by Kosta Karatamoglou and Caitlin McGregor from Supportwave. They dive into the evolving gig economy and how it’s reshaping the MSP landscape.
Here are three reasons why you should tune in:
Discover how the gig economy is creating flexible work opportunities for both MSPs and IT professionals.
Learn about the rise of fractional roles and how they provide high-level expertise without full-time commitments.
Understand the impact of AI and globalization on the future of remote and on-site IT support.
Join us for a fascinating discussion about the future of work in the MSP industry!
Listen on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
Connect with Kosta Karatamoglou on LinkedIn by clicking here
– https://www.linkedin.com/in/kosta-karatamoglou-2b33275b/
Connect with Caitlin McGregor on LinkedIn by clicking here
– https://www.linkedin.com/in/caitlin-m-b9b224149/
Connect with Daniel Welling on LinkedIn by clicking here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-welling-54659715/
Connect with Adam Morris on LinkedIn by clicking here – linkedin.com/in/adamcmorris
Visit The MSP Finance Team website, simply click here – https://www.mspfinanceteam.com/
We look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Stay tuned!
We created It’s a Numbers Game Podcast to help MSP owners learn and understand how to build and maintain a financially healthy MSP business. In this podcast series, MSP business owners like you will learn the fundamental steps, the tips and tricks, the dos and don’ts to achieve MSP financial growth.
Transcript:
Daniel: Thanks for joining us. And today, I’m actually joined by my regular co host Adam.
Adam: Dan.
Daniel: Hello, and a really interesting conversation ahead of us, because we’re joined also by Kosta and Caitlin from support wave. Welcome along to the podcast.
Kosta: Hey, thank you.
Caitlin: Okay. Okay.
Daniel: of different ideas about what we’re actually going to talk about on today’s topic. And we were struggling to condense it down to, to, to a 20 minute episode. So hopefully we’ll, we’ll be successful in, drawing out some value. I’ll kick off just by saying how, Kosta and I first met, so a little shout out to, the benefit of, of networking and attending industry events, during which you should never be closed to meeting new people.
Daniel: Kosta and I actually met over the bread rolls, in the lunch queue at a CompTIA event a couple of weeks ago. So a couple of years ago, sorry, I should say, so, so Kosta,perhaps you could kick us off,the. Talk to us a little bit about how you’ve seen the gig economy evolving over the last sort of five years.
Kosta: The last five years.I think I might even hand that over to Kate to
Caitlin: Yeah, I’ll be able to elaborate a little bit more on that. so absolutely the gig economy has grown exponentially over the last five years and it’s continuing to grow, especially in, in, in the US as well as the UK. I think COVID definitely accelerated. so may that be by, you know, potential redundancies and forcing people into looking to alternative ways to earn extra money on the side, or needing to be able to work remotely.
Caitlin: There’s so many marketplaces and platforms out there that allows people to pick up work as an, as and when they need it.
Daniel: and these platforms historically would have been, and in fact still are, Upwork, Fiverr.
Caitlin: Yeah, the likes of Upwork, Fiverr, there, there’s about, I think over 800 marketplaces at the moment.
Daniel: Wow. 800. No, no
Caitlin: Yeah. there’s, yeah, there’s quite a few niche ones. I mean, they work across every, every vertical really like marketing focused ones, developer focused ones, like support wave IT ops.
Caitlin: So yeah, we’re growing sector for sure.
Daniel: And,this is growing not just because of demand, but because of supply as well, presumably, people want to, Employ people on a part time and hourly as and when needed basis and presumably people want to work in that way as well.
Kosta: Yeah,
Caitlin: absolutely. Absolutely. People want the freedom to be able to work as and when and where they please. I’m in the traditional nine to five, I think is quite a outdated mindset.so these marketplaces, you know, allow for this freedom. A
Adam: Is there something about the change in the psychology as well of younger people, you know, over the last 20 years, parenting styles have changed. Maybe expectations have changed. Is that, so we’ve got the technological change, we’ve got the globalization, we’ve got COVID thrown in. Is there something about how we were parenting our kids 20 years ago that’s also part of this shift, you think?
Caitlin: big melting pot of all those factors. Yeah.that allows for the shift. And like you mentioned, COVID definitely accelerated it. I would say for sure.
Daniel: and, I guess there’s a shift there in mindset with, MSPs employing staff as well. So we started off, with the question around the gig economy as being an alternative to an MSP employing full time,regular members of their team and that the pain that all MSPs feel around that, you know, we’re definitely resource constrained or that’s how it feels as a, as an industry.
Daniel: so, are you seeing that the MSP being, being a consumer of,of gig, the gig opportunity
Caitlin: Yeah, our, yeah, our MSP segment or customers using us has grown hugely, especially over the last two years. I think it’s the nature of that project work and tapping into the skills they need when they need them and not wanting to hire someone full time on there. I actually just spoke to someone before this.
Caitlin: they have a big project coming up and they don’t. They don’t want to hire someone full time just to oversee this project. So just having that, availability to tap into the skills they need when they need them, I think is key. And once I think MSP start using, you know, fractional workers or gig workers, they, you just realize you don’t need that person full time. It’s a mindset shift.
Daniel: And just to pick up on that word fractional, which I’m not actually sure the first time I heard it, maybe at some point within the last 12 months, but it fractional sounds a lot more prestigious than gig worker. is there a mindset around that? Actually, people just understanding that’s what it is.
Daniel: It’s you know, there’s nothing untoward about it.
Caitlin: Yeah, I think, you know, historically, the word gig worker, people think of, you know, fast food delivery drivers or Uber drivers potentially. but you know, it’s definitely not the case and it, there, there is a highly skilled people coming into the workforce that, you know, deserve a bit of a. Yeah. Shiny a title, I guess not, but I think, you know, from fractional to, fractional gig worker.
Caitlin: consultant, there’s so many different terms. And I think, you know, the part of the problem with our, space is getting common language that, you know, everyone can understand and resonate with what to call these guys. So there is a bit of an education piece. but yeah, we’ve seen a huge rise of fractional roles, highly skilled people, wanting to give their services out at a price that, you know, people can afford, you know, the smaller MSP can’t afford a senior guy full time.
Caitlin: So, so being able to come in on a fractional level from a strategy perspective and actually executing that. it just opens up, rather drops the barriers to be able to get access to these highly skilled people.
Kosta: Yeah, just
Adam: I just ask a question around the Did you, the kind of global demographic of this, because obviously we’re dealing with a global workforce. Right. And so we’ve
Adam: got European and, you know, Greenwich meantime, approach to it, but we can also look to other parts of the globe and the cost of living and the pricing is completely different in these other areas.
Adam: How, so how does this kind of work economically? when maybe you’ve got someone living
Adam: in London versus someone in Indonesia, for example. and the different costs and the different approaches. to how someone in the West may go about selecting a fractional workforce.
Caitlin: going
Kosta: so we can actually change the pricing, to each location. Some areas are slightly more so it’s slightly less, but we do something called the tech talk where we bring the technicians in and we ask them as well. So we get to know, like, you know, obviously we can’t know exactly what everything costs everywhere, what the costs are like, but based on transport costs, based on cost of living, we kind of work that out and we ask them and be honest with them and they’re honest with us.
Kosta: So, you know, maybe a taxi is. Cheap in New York than it is, for example, in Hong Kong, Tokyo, because we do Tokyo, Hong Kong as well. And I actually initially my, a year ago when I, when we did our first job in Hong Kong,the actual, the commute was, literally the same cost as, you know, the entire payout to the technician.
Kosta: So we actually had to adjust that. And then, you know, and then, yeah, but obviously it’s a learning curve there, but now we kind of have a whole bunch of stats and we’ve kind of, put that into our back end and we do adjust them. Based on cost of living.
Caitlin: and I think that’s kind of where the flexibility comes in, you know, what, with whatever client that we working with, we just get to know them and we can position, you know, the right person for their budget and for their needs. I mean, some people want onshore, someone offshore really just depends
Adam: And so if I’m looking to build this flexible workforce, might I select, UK workers perhaps for customer facing roles, but other engineers
Adam: whose English language skills aren’t as good perhaps for back office skills, for example. Is that the approach I might take? Because,
Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. if that’s. What works for your business. Yeah, for sure. We definitely had some customers that do
Adam: percent of the cost.
Kosta: correct. But we actually do pay, very competitive rates, to them, even though it is in a lower,kind of, cost of living areas. That’s why we do. But the thing is, see, the way the software actually works is we kind of keep it very local unless you opt to do that. To have offshore. So basically the software itself, if you’re booking a remote job in the UK, you get a remote person.
Kosta: The only time it would then go out of UK, the algorithm will put you to us. If after, you know, 10 minutes, there’s no response. It’ll then ping the U S cause it could be you sitting, you know, 3 AM and you know, no one picks it up. It’s unlikely, but it does happen as well. General TMI.
Daniel: And. I guess sort of touching on the,the sensitivity, perhaps of communication, variances, between,people working in different parts of the world, delivering service to different parts of the world. are your MSP, clients, are they, being open and upfront with their clients?
Daniel: Their clients in turn that they are, resourcing using, fractional,workers,or are they presenting this as part of their general team or a mix even
Caitlin: Yeah. I think, you know, Kosta can potentially speak more on this, but I would say, you know, our guys go in there with whatever the clients have to, they need to be wearing and they go in as the client for sure.
Kosta: I mean, the way the software is built, they actually get a ping and it shows you that you are being booked on behalf of, and you are, you know, acting as this is the client. And you can choose, there’s various options that you can customize yourself, whether you want them to contact the customer direct, whether they can only make contact with you, but going on site, they know to act as the MSP.
Kosta: Yeah.
Daniel: and what one of the. Points you sort of alluded to their, and of course it makes sense, but it hadn’t had quite, hadn’t quite dropped the penny hadn’t quite dropped with me was, the commute. The travel time is going to be such a contribution to the cost of delivering a Piece of work if it’s an hour rather than a day, relatively, and I think this is something that MSPs are not particularly good at doing with their own internal resources, allowing for travel cost and time.
Daniel: And, and so this, I guess, exposes that fully, you know, you’re paying for it. It’s not a hidden cost as part of what you’re paying already. So, do you find that’s a barrier to MSPs being able to take advantage of the fractional workforce because they’re just not sufficiently organized or haven’t priced something in the right way to their client in the first place.
Caitlin: one
Kosta: the flip side, it would be like they, you know, they always want to quote, you know, they are working off a budget. yeah, so it can be tricky, I think, for them, because they obviously, you know, I mean, some MSPs, you say MSP, and it always sounds like such a big word, managed service provider.
Kosta: It could be one person. It could be two people. It could be a team of people. So yes, they have to always, you know, watch budgets and stuff and they can’t always be on top of everything. They might quote something or what often happens if it’s a, if it’s a big client and this is what we get a lot of is I’m doing another rollout now as well, where, Oh, it’s in Manchester, the client’s in Manchester, but no, it’s great to Manchester.
Kosta: And there’s all these little pockets everywhere where they’ve got to visit. Maybe it’s 500 users. And now I have to map out. I mean, I’m talking global scale. So we’re looking at Glasgow, London. We’re looking at Sydney, we’re looking at one person in Christchurch, New Zealand, and we roll that out for them within, you know, within a week, like, technically, now that all the technicians are out there, they can just go and pick their favorites, message the technicians, say, we need to do this, and this, and say, you know, it’s a USB update, or you got to install, you know, new windows or whatever it is, and boom, there you go.
Kosta: There’s no way an MSP will be able to roll that out by just, you know, looking on LinkedIn or trying to find people, you know. yeah, so.
Caitlin: where the
Daniel: would this just not have worked historically? I’m trying to, I’m trying to think back to,yeah, right.
Kosta: I think that, yeah, yes, they’re all using retainer. So a lot of that when they came to everything is like, oh, I’m paying this MSP in, you know, Sydney retain. I’m paying this MSP here retain. And these return is not adding up, you know, and what they can do essentially is just buy a couple bulk hours, sit there and just use them as they need to, as opposed to having to, or just nothing.
Kosta: You just literally sign up. You have your favorite technicians. You mentioned them. I need you to pop into site. Yeah. There you go. And off you go, you know, no retainers needed.
Daniel: and so, you’ve alluded to your platform,a couple of times and we’ll, we’ll get to a, we’ll get to a,
Kosta: Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yes. Sorry. I was,
Daniel: a shameless plug a little bit later on. it might have been mentioned in, in Adam’s, Adam’s introduction at the beginning.
Daniel: But,uh,you talked about, the speed of response of accepting. Jobs, so effectively we’re saying there is no retainer, but we’re we’ve got a sufficient amount of resource that’s engaged and available. So almost like when I go into McDonald’s and I’m after a I mean, I’m always difficult.
Kosta: I always want to fillet a fish and they’re never ready. But some of the some of We’re a McFlurry and the ice cream machine’s down. Yes.
Daniel: I can’t believe it. What? ? and so, so, so is that how it works for you? if there was a, like a standard, like a, I needed a desktop engineer to,to go and,go and do something,end user based, I’m more likely to find that sort of resource pretty quickly and easily than I am A Juniper experts.
Caitlin: Yep.
Kosta: on the type of skill. If you are looking for a specific skill, You could do that as well. we can do that as well. Yeah, but it might take a lot of time. We’d like to give it like a week or two to onboard because we have, sorry, I’m going to, it’s very hard not to talk about the platform.
Kosta: Sorry. how do I not? But, many technicians have signed up and they don’t always onboard. So we can still search via all of the skill sets. and we can hand pick those and then,kind of fast track them for onboarding.
Daniel: And
Caitlin: I was going to say, you mentioned earlier, you know, how do your technicians get on board? A lot of them work, like, get referred. We don’t do any marketing to get them onto the platform. They work through referrals within each other. They, word of mouth. so, yeah, if we ever looking for a specific skill set or need a specific skill set, nothing more powerful than word of mouth,
Daniel: And I guess we’ve talked a little bit about how the MSP might benefit from working withfractional team members. I guess we should really explore the benefits of For the engineer, for the technician, for the consultant contractor, however, whatever the right terminology is,and I think about, you know, the sort of bottom of the pyramid in terms of the MSP market and your sort of, you know, lots and lots of, One, one person businesses, where, they, they perhaps don’t have the sales and marketing,budgets, skill set,abilities, enjoyment of, of winning new business.
Daniel: So this presumably is a great way for them to focus on doing what they enjoy doing the technical delivery part, but,but, relying on others to,to effectively be doing the sales and marketing.
Caitlin: exactly. And, you know, sometimes, you know, with these one man band, MSPs, you kind of hit a threshold, you know, you want to take on more clients and more work, but how, you know, do you tap into a pool of other it experts to try and help you, you know, how can you grow with that, with the art life?take on more than you can chew.so yeah, being able to on the, we’ll get on a marketplace and be able to build your team definitely helps.
Adam: I’ve
Adam: just got a question around, I guess some of the security challenges here. how does a company like yours go about. Facilitating their engineers to get the right access for their clients. So, you know, password management and all aspects of that, when they are potentially just, you know, doing one or two fleeting, pieces of work for the, for those clients, how do you kind of manage all that?
Kosta: On platform. we do have a few kind of like almost a, a password sharing tool, where you can allow the technician to only see the information once you’ve approved that technician specifically. But how it works is that essentially you build your own team. You build your own team through favorites, through your account, and then you would add that person.
Kosta: and you would use them. So you wouldn’t actually use them. You know, you wouldn’t just get a random technician through the software every time. So you would kind of, and obviously there has to be, you know, a little bit of trust, but between you and the technician,in that way. Yes.
Adam: So, so we’re
Adam: not quite at the level where for every job, we’ve got a different guy. We’re not quite there yet.
Kosta: no. Well,
Caitlin: Yeah, a larger. No, I was going to say our larger customers prefer using their favorite and pool of text because that some of them often sign NDAs and they know that environment. So they technically do tend to go back and build their team opposed to keep getting new people every time. but I think it just, you know, depends the level of how integrated they are
Adam: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I’m just wondering whether it will, you know, get further along that road. So there’s less and less reliance. I’m building that team and, you know, as we move into the future, it becomes even more disconnected because the processes and tool sets are there. I don’t know.
Adam: I’m just asking the question. I mean, maybe that’s another question is how do
Adam: you see, the future of the way that people work globally, employment versus self employment, flexibility. You know, our pensions, a thing of the past, you know, or corporate pensions, you know, how does all this, how does all this kind of, fit together?
Adam: Do you think for the next 10 years?
Kosta: a tough question. I mean, I mean, look, all we try and obviously from an ops point of view, And marketing, obviously we are trying to build a platform that would allow someone become to become a full time freelancer, you know, so giving them those tools, whether it’s, you know, giving them some sort of retainer themselves to allow them to not have a full time job in the form of an SLA.
Kosta: If we have a guarantee from an MSP and they require these hours, for example, like in data centers, we can give them a guarantee if they have, maybe if we can give them a few SLAs or a few pools, then they would have,A guarantee. So where do I see it? I think it is tricky, but you know, we are trying to obviously build a platform that would allow technicians to,or allow people to generally be more freelance, you know, and fractional.
Kosta: I don’t know if you want to add there. Sorry, Kate.
Caitlin: on what you said, It’s just facilitating a place for IT experts to be able to take that leap into the fractional space and essentially work on themselves. You know, we believe that’s where the future is going. Nine to five is slightly archaic, and we may be ahead of the curve by saying that, but we really do believe that people want to be take control of their earning potential, of their potential.
Caitlin: Customers that they work on, broaden their scope, work from anywhere in the world, whether that be remotely or on site, and I think COVID is a perfect example of things in life that can, you know, accelerate that, so.
Daniel: is the bombshell here that this is the Uber of, of MSP world
Kosta: You could say that. I mean, we have been called that.
Daniel: Okay.
Kosta: But it’s just about growth. You know, it’s about allowing just assisting in every way, you know, for an MSP to have a client, in the U S that’s opening an office, for example, in the UK and London, and being able to deploy there for them, you know, as themselves, it’s just opening up a market and being a tool to allow them to have resources, you know,
Daniel: if I take the Uber example just one, one step further in, in order to help me sort of understand and get comfortable with this whole topic,the thing I like about Uber is, I don’t have to have cash. That was something that whenever I get in a taxi, how much is it going to cost them?
Daniel: Am I going to have to get frog marks to a cash machine in the middle of the night or the pouring rain? I never really knew.what the time was going to be like how I had to allow extra time. I also when I went somewhere new, I didn’t have a list of all the taxi companies and to go through them.
Daniel: So, you know, I’m thinking this through and I’m thinking, well, wouldn’t it be great if there was an Uber for the for MSP resourcing? I’ve got. Simplified frictionless payment,I can locate in a reasonable timeframe and I can operate in any territory is, am I missing anything there?
Daniel: And, or is that pretty much,
Caitlin: No, I think that’s spot on Daniel and, you know, it’s funny. We had an MSP joke with us. The other day,your online little black book, you know, when you’re looking for a resource, you kind of just turn to your little black book and your yellow pages, but this is just a digital version of that.
Caitlin: I mean, I think, you know, to go back to your, comparison to Uber, I thinkwhere the similarities are is it’s. It’s frictionless, like you said, and from a on demand perspective and people don’t want to, it’s from an ease. People don’t want to wait for things. They want things instantly. and they want something to be, have a easy UI or user interface, to use.
Caitlin: And just putting all in that one in one place is making that happen.
Daniel: So perhaps we’ve actually stumbled across the title for this episode, which is frictionless, fractional filio fish, maybe
Kosta: Yeah,
Adam: Easy for you to say.
Caitlin: Love it. Tongue
Daniel: that’s what all the notes are pointing at, in fact, that there is probably one area that, that I think we,we did talk about in our pre conversation that we’ve not yet touched on, which is,the impact of AI On this space. so, any thoughts there? And I’m talking about artificial rather than actual intelligence.
Daniel: When I say I,
Caitlin: Yeah.
Kosta: Do you mean in terms of support taking over? I mean, I can see it from a remote support aspect. Almost like a tool where you could make contact, and then have all the different ways in order to do that. But when you’re talking about physical smart hands in tech and actually having to go on site and having to actually plug something in to do a physical reboot, or maybe having to, you know, splice a cable, they ask probably, I mean, I won’t say never because I’ll probably build a robot to do it.
Kosta: but I think we still quite far away. So I think there’s different tiers where it can be. Game changing. I mean, Ieven the remote support could probably be totally taken over eventually by AI, by like a third line AI bot that actually says, Oh, this is what’s happening on the server. Oh, I just bought this code.
Kosta: Boom, boom. And it’d be, we done, but the physical hands, the actual manual labor, you know, like AI can’t build a data center, you know, AI can’t go in there and plug everything in, you know, it can’t do all the routing. I mean, yes, exactly. Yes. A little bots, but yeah.
Adam: Yeah.
Caitlin: you know, how we see it is it can enhance the, and also the general sentiment within the IT experts is they don’t, from my understanding, it’s not a, you know, a fear that AI is going to replace a job, except learning how to use it and enhance it within their. Within their role,
Kosta: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Caitlin: because I think that’s what’s going to set, you, you know, your part is how can you use it to make yourself more efficient?
Adam: opposed to, you know, not using it from a time perspective.I
Adam: think this is back to that point I was making earlier about the globalization. So we, and the tool sets and the technology all kind of coming together here and
Adam: enabling all of this. So, so where we’ve got different cultures, different languages, different personalities, and the technical side.
Adam: You know, for me, AI joins all these things together to, to kind of elevate that service level from something quite mediocre to something quite special, maybe even tailored to the persona and culture of the individual client. And
Adam: now all of a sudden, wow, okay, hang on a second. You know, those guys in the Philippines, it wouldn’t have worked, but now it really does work.
Adam: and, so I think that’s really exciting and I think, you know, five, 10 years from now, you know, it’s going to look more like that. I
Adam: think it’s just got to, just from a, just from an economic perspective. and, so yeah, it’s fascinating. It really is.
Kosta: I mean, a big one would be language barriers and just AR picking up and then translating instantly straight into a phone. Like some of the films that you’d never worry about that barrier at all. There’s already technology for call centers that change the voice live into an American accent. You know, there’s loads of things happening then.
Kosta: And so, yeah, definitely it is.
Adam: It can do that in real time now. how good is
Kosta: Yes, well, it’s real time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Adam: so, you know, it’s just crazy.
Kosta: Yeah.
Daniel: there’ll be a, an American Adam and Daniel podcast episode soon.
Kosta: there we go, change your mind.
Daniel: Yeah.
Adam: we were doing our texting impressions earlier, weren’t we, Dan? So,
Daniel: we were, yes. Yeah.
Caitlin: you hear it.
Daniel: so, so yeah, I mean, fa fascinating, fascinating discussion and,maybe not quite the episode title that we’re setting on, but,and yeah, really appreciate your, in your input into this.
Daniel: And,perhaps this is a, this is an ideal opportunity for the, for the shameless plug and actually describe what the platform is that we’ve been talking about for 25 minutes.
Caitlin: time.
Kosta: yeah, so basically Supportwave, you said at the Uber of IT originally, we actually used to be called NerdApp a long time ago, when we first kicked things off. And then as we moved into more enterprise MSP space, I think the blue and not the pink and the name Supportwave works really well.
Kosta: and yeah, so basically we offer, on demand frictionless RT support, smart hands. And obviously remote support, and we have a flex. So basically it’s like a, short term long term, roles as well. and then we have a support desk, which is, we actually, with that same technology that we use for remote technicians, we can whip up a help desk by bringing all these remote technicians together through the software and building up, a like virtual call center with all the call routing and everything included that can be literally deployed within five days.
Kosta: Yeah,
Daniel: Really? yeah. Yeah, really interesting. And,so I’m glad we, I’m glad our eyes met across the bread rolls at,
Kosta: Yes. I mean, that’s yeah. And we keep and then we’re sitting next to each other at the most recent comp share event in Manchester was
Daniel: that’s right.
Kosta: We end up sharing a table.
Daniel: yeah. Yeah.
Daniel: that’s going to help,reduce some of the, the,the downward pressure on the market, I think we will always be resource constrained whilst the market is in a growth phase. So in some ways, while we’re constrained, it’s a good, it means the positive things for the market.
Daniel: but, yeah, this sounds like one of those, One of those ways of mitigating and, and taking advantage of the growth. so, so no, really interesting and, and good to hear a couple of years on your, continuing to involve and develop the business and, yeah, really appreciate you your time today.
Daniel: And I’m sure we’ll have you back on the podcast, at some point in the future, if our evil, robot overlords allow us.
Caitlin: guys. Thanks for having us.
Kosta: Thanks so much. Thanks, Adam. Thanks, Daniel.